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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/13/2008 : 08:58:47

To the Association Treasurer:
Where/when do we get to see a revenue and expense report for the Association? I have checked the Telltale minutes going back to Sept 07 and have not seen any such reporting. Is it in the Mainsheet and I just missed it? As spread out as we are geographically, attending an annual meeting to get a financial report is impractical. Since the Telltale is in the members only section, I would like to request that the revenue and expenses and cash balance be reported in the Telltale at least annually, preferably semi-annually. Thanks.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2008 : 12:11:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 To the Association Treasurer:
Where/when do we get to see a revenue and expense report for the Association? I have checked the Telltale minutes going back to Sept 07 and have not seen any such reporting. Is it in the Mainsheet and I just missed it? As spread out as we are geographically, attending an annual meeting to get a financial report is impractical. Since the Telltale is in the members only section, I would like to request that the revenue and expenses and cash balance be reported in the Telltale at least annually, preferably semi-annually. Thanks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

David

No, the accounting data has not been posted in the Mainsheet.

All of the association members are entitled to see the books. I would be happy to provide you with a copy of the mid year (July 08 ) accounting. It is an Excel spreadsheet, so it would be easier for me to email it to you.

Your idea of reporting the data in the association members area is a good one that will be turned over to the new officers.

Mark

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2008 : 12:22:12

Thanks, Mark. Yes, please email the spreadsheet to me. I would like to see it. Also, how many paying members do we have?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2008 : 15:24:30

Mark, if you send me the xls sheet I'll post it in the current telltales.

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2008 : 16:23:18

I'm curious about the member-count, too.

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2008 : 16:48:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa Mark, if you send me the xls sheet I'll post it in the current telltales.;Paul<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Paul;Copy sent;Friday was NOT a good day, I'm unexpectedly on the road in CA, so it's from my work email account.... They are finishing the recovery efforts, so the investigation starts. I'll be off and on..;Mark

Edited by - mhartong on 09/14/2008 15:38:22

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2008 : 19:22:44

The latest financials are now in the September TellTales within the members area.

If you have previously visited the current telltales, you may have to reload the page.

paul

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2008 : 23:10:32

Thank-you, Mark and Paul.
If my math is correct, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like we have about 390 paying members, 36 more as of July 08 than we had a year ago. Good work guys!

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/13/2008 23:29:57

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 08:32:49

Now that the financials are available for review by the members, it would be appropriate for anyone accusing the officers of misconduct to either prove their allegations or stop their unwarranted abuse of the people who are freely giving their time and energies to this Association. It seems to me that any organization that has been so well managed that it's most serious controversy is whether it has too much money in its treasury doesn't need a self-appointed overseer making unfounded and unfair accusations.

Vague references to ancient posts on the forum are not sufficient. It's time to produce hard evidence of dollars that have actually been misappropriated or misused.

Edited by - on

C25-Observer
Deckhand

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15 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 09:53:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Now that the financials are available for review by the members, it would be appropriate for anyone accusing the officers of misconduct to either prove their allegations or stop their unwarranted abuse of the people who are freely giving their time and energies to this Association. It seems to me that any organization that has been so well managed that it's most serious controversy is whether it has too much money in its treasury doesn't need a self-appointed overseer making unfounded and unfair accusations.

Vague references to ancient posts on the forum are not sufficient. It's time to produce hard evidence of dollars that have actually been misappropriated or misused.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No one has EVER accused anyone of misappropriation of Association funds.

In fact it is you Steve that brought that issue up about a past group of officers.
Isn’t it true that the “near destruction” of the Association that you described was attempted but never implemented?
To make that accusation is a GROSS (deliberate?) misrepresentation of the issue at hand.
The issue is the steady erosion of the ability of the members to be fully informed and participate in the governance of the Association. Now that the financials are out everyone can see that this has led to a steady erosion of the membership.
To repeat;
NO one has Ever accused officers of misuse of the association funds.

http://c25-250-observer.blogspot.com/
Visit the Blog read the truth. Careful we play rough there.

Unlike Steve’s post we do not make false accusations.
We will post any comments that are not out right lies or contain obscenities."

Fair Breezes
C25-Observer

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 11:27:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by C25-Observer
 http://c25-250-observer.blogspot.com/
Visit the Blog read the truth. Careful we play rough there.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes, Mr. Anonymous, and you play outside of the boundaries defined by the association's Forum Rules, which include: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">7. Personal attacks against other posters or members will not be tolerated. Offenders may be banned from the forum<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Why do you feel it necessary to play elsewhere--outside of the forum? What else should we call your "comments" there about Frank Hopper and Bill Meinert, our two most recent commodores, but personal attacks--anonymous to boot? I recall that the association banned one individual, and only one that I know of, for the same kind of bahavior exhibited in your blog. Hmmmmmm... if only I could remember who that was......

I will submit that, in the humble opinion of a stinkpotter, continuing those anonymous attacks and your general vitriol toward this community and anyone (other than "your candidate") who donates their time to lead or help it, and then repeatedly providing links to those attacks in your blog, constitutes the use of our forums for personal attacks. "One Click to Anonymous's Personal Hell." We don't "play rough here", nor do we hide our identities, which is why you have to play elsewhere.

By the way, regarding the contention that the governance of the association is excluding some vast proportion of the paid membership, let's look at some numbers:

1. dmplic's analysis of the financial statement indicated roughly 390 paid members. As a result of various discussions here on the subject, the association has decided not to limit the forums to paid members. How many memberships has that cost us? Probably none--it welcomes participants into the community, where many end up joining the association.

2. A simple analysis of the "Members" list here shows that over 570 individuals (IDs) have posted to the forums in just the past year. Are they all paid members? Of course not. How many more are lurking out there without posting--particularly prospective buyers? Do all paid members use the forums, silently or actively? Who knows? Draw your own conclusions from the numbers. I'd say the evidence points to the forums being the hub and heartbeat of this association. Many have said the magazines, although "pushed out" to members, are unread. Let's face it--the internet has forever changed the function and meaning of an association such as this. And the give-and-take (within the "boundaries") profoundly improves its governance.
-------------------------------------
My apologies to everyone else here... If the association feels this post constitutes grounds for banishing me, I'll go quietly, with no return fire, and no anonymous blogs. The association is what it chooses to be.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/14/2008 11:49:22

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 12:06:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by C25-Observer
 [quote]
The issue is the steady erosion of the ability of the members to be fully informed and participate in the governance of the Association. Now that the financials are out everyone can see that this has led to a steady erosion of the membership.

Fair Breezes
C25-Observer

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am not sure how and what members feel this way. Also I see by the financials that membership is up from last year. I don't know about previous years, if that is what you are talking about steady erosion.
But I feel that this persistent negative chatter must stop. As a member, I believe the new officers need to address this issue. We all have a common goal and should unite. So lets try to resolve these issues and move on. This goes "both" ways. I hope this is possible.
Steve Auerbach

Edited by - on

C25-Observer
Deckhand

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15 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 12:16:52

Dave Bristle wrote;
“1. . dmplic's analysis of the financial statement indicated roughly 390 paid members. “

Thanks Dave just the stat we should be talking about.
From your own thread on "Membership Trivia"
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16676&SearchTerms=membership

Duane Wolff posted the following.
"2 years ago I recall that out of 712 members we found that about 58% of the membership had a forum login. 40% of that number posted at least once in the past year."

So from 2005 to now the the membership has fallen by 322 members.This IS the issue.
By reducing the Association to the forum the membership has been reduced by 45%.

Let’s look at the rest of his post.
“…out of 712 members we found that about 58% of the membership had a forum login.”
That would be 413.
“40% of that number posted at least once in the past year.”
That would be 165 members posting once a year.

That was when we had 712 members we now have 390 members.
Please check the math.

This neither an attack nor a personal opinion.
Confining the Association to the forum has significantly reduced the membership and has taken the participation of the assoc. to new lows.
This affects all of us who want to maintain a healthy interest in our boats.
Isn't worth fighting for to keep the association healthy and valuable to a wide range of owners who BTW own a boat in one of the largest fleets of in America?

http://c25-250-observer.blogspot.com/
Visit the Blog read the truth. Careful we play rough there.

We will post any comments that are not out right lies or contain obscenities."

Fair Breezes
C25-Observer

*Just a side note.
The C25-observer does not use mailing lists.
Officers and staff of the associaion who post thier e-mail addy's can expect to hear from paid members.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 14:02:50

The last issue of the Mainsheet was mailed to 582 paying members. Member subscriptions have increased since that distribution was prepared.

Following rather contentious forum discussions surrounding the election cycle two years ago, the membership dropped dramatically over that next year. This past year, during a forced period of detente on the forum, the membership has increased to its normal average over the past five years of around 600 paying members.

P.s.

Another point to be clarified on this thread is the issue of "surplus" funds. There are no surplus funds. Approximately 85% of each annual $22 dues payment goes toward Mainsheet subscriptions and the database management that makes distribution of the magazine possible.

Since members pay annually and their subscriptions are paid quarterly, the association retains in it's bank accounts 100%, 75%, 50% and 0%, respectively, of each members' prepaid subscription expenses. If the association were on an accrual basis of accounting, as opposed to a cash basis, there would be a liability account on the balance reflecting the value of the association's obligation to meet those future subscription expenses.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 09/14/2008 14:17:28

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 14:27:04

Thanks Sea Trac.
As a relative newcomer to the Association, I offer the following:
1. This forum is an exciting and informative one which has helped me personally on many occasions as I've gotten to know our "new" boat. Almost everyone has been courteous and friendly, and often the banter has been a lot of fun as well. Lots of good-humored people on the forum. Makes me want to keep coming back.

2. Many posters seem genuinely concerned when any of our fellow members are in a jam, whether it be medical, financial, or weather-related. I find that comforting. GaryB and other members in Ike's path, I do hope your boat is okay and that you all made it through without too much damage.

3. The annual dues to be a part of this Association is very inexpensive, and the financial health appears to be very good, especially considering our small membership base!

(I'm also a member of the C-22 National Sailing Association, and the dues there are $27.00 a year.)
4. We all need to be promoting our Association. Every time a boat changes hands, we need to make every effort to help the new owner(s) be aware of the Association and the benefits of being a member. If you know of a C-25, C-250, or Capri-25 owner who is not a member, try to find out why and try to change their mind. If you are selling your boat, offer to pay the first year's dues for the new owner and show them how to log in. It's informative and it's FUN!

5. I haven't done it yet, so here I'm talking about myself as well. We all need to think about writing and submitting articles to the Mainsheet editors. I've seen technical help threads and trip threads in this forum that would make good articles in the Mainsheet. There's no reason why we can't use both the forum and the magazine to reach out to Catalina 25-footer owners. A little duplication won't hurt. We may be doing it and I just haven't seen it, but we should also be promoting the forum in the Mainsheet Magazine. We have both tools at our disposal, let's use both.
6. Let's quit beating each other up. It's not nice and it's just not fun reading.

Sorry to be so long-winded.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/14/2008 14:34:52

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 16:51:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sea Trac
 The last issue of the Mainsheet was mailed to 582 paying members. Member subscriptions have increased since that distribution was prepared.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I stand corrected.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2008 : 22:42:58

Does the 582 number above include magazine subscribers who are not members of the Association?

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 02:21:21

So, what is C25-Observer's point?

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 06:45:45

Subscription is a function of membership, so the 582 number does not include magazine subscribers who are not members of the Association.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 08:45:57

When I bought Bamboo in September of 06 (hey, it's my 2 year anniversary!) I was pointed to this association by my PO. I also looked at a few other forums but after a some months I found myself almost exclusively at this one. I don't know the history of this association or what it's been through to arrive at this representation, but it has offered to me through it's fine members a wealth of knowledge that has helped me to no end with my boat. I've heard this same thought from countless other members, How could it not grow and prosper?
My hat is off to all those who make this possible, you have my undying gratitude.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 10:12:14

I need to eat a little crow here. I falsely assumed that dues were billed annually at the same time for everyone. Mr. Manly was kind enough to answer an email I sent him and me educate me with the following:

"Our database management firm sends renewal invoices out quarterly, and each quarter brings in roughly 25% of the membership dues. I haven't checked but I'm guessing the membership now stands around 650, because the first quarter was lighter than normal, and the second and third have been heavier."

Therefore my calculation of 390 paying members is obviously quite wrong, and I sincerely apologize to everyone for the resulting misleading confusion.

So, if we had 712 members 2-3 years ago and about 650 now, that is still a decline, but nowhere as near dramatic as a drop to 390. No doubt some of that decline is due to members selling their boats. Some may be due to loss of interest (hey, it happens!). Family dynamics and finances can also play a role. Whatever the cause, we need to put forth our best faces and convince every Catalina 25-footer with whom we come into contact that we do indeed have a great National Association, and that it's a bargain for $22.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/15/2008 12:48:14

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 11:00:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So, what is C25-Observer's point?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In the six years I have been participating in and observing this forum, John Gisond aka C25-Observer aka Peregrine is the first member I can recall that has authored this much negativity.
He is not representative of the people here.
I urge that all members vote, there are good choices. This is the first year where we as dues paying members need to think about who we vote for. In the past it didn't matter because everyone was a good candidate.
This is the best sailing website on the internet. If we are not vigilant, it may sink to the depths of the site that C-25 Observer wallows in.

Edited by - stampeder on 10/19/2008 23:02:18

Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 11:25:15

IMHO, Troll games should not be allowed here.

Go away...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 14:03:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 So, if we had 712 members 2-3 years ago and about 650 now, that is still a decline, but nowhere as near dramatic as a drop to 390. No doubt some of that decline is due to members selling their boats...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll offer a theory on the decline... In the height of C-25 production, around 1983-4, Catalina was building upwards of around 800 C-25s in one year--over 6,000 in 14 years. They have built just a little over 900 C-250s in its entire 13-year production run to date. One must reasonably expect that as boats get older and change hands, the interest in a national owners' association will dissipate.

The addition of new C-250 owners is unlikely to offset the natural decline in the much larger number of members with the older C-25s. To expect otherwise, or to hold anyone "responsible" for it, is unreasonable. As we have discussed, these boats are starter-cruisers and large daysailers--not the one-design racers or eye-catching classics that attract passionate owners. (We have no less than ten designs, including the rare C-250 TR and rarer C-250 fin keel, and not including the legitimate one-design Capri 25.) We congratulate each other on moves up and down, and in some cases continue following the association after those moves. As I see it, there are many more passionate sailors among us than passionate owners.

As has also been said by many people, this is one of the finest communities of sailors in existence. The forums and their participants are what make it so. Congratulations and thanks to all who made this happen, improved it over the years, and kept it going!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/15/2008 14:32:48

C25-Observer
Deckhand

Members Avatar

15 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 22:20:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 I need to eat a little crow here. I falsely assumed that dues were billed annually at the same time for everyone. Mr. Manly was kind enough to answer an email I sent him and me educate me with the following:

"Our database management firm sends renewal invoices out quarterly, and each quarter brings in roughly 25% of the membership dues. I haven't checked but I'm guessing the membership now stands around 650, because the first quarter was lighter than normal, and the second and third have been heavier."

Therefore my calculation of 390 paying members is obviously quite wrong, and I sincerely apologize to everyone for the resulting misleading confusion.

So, if we had 712 members 2-3 years ago and about 650 now, that is still a decline, but nowhere as near dramatic as a drop to 390. No doubt some of that decline is due to members selling their boats. Some may be due to loss of interest (hey, it happens!). Family dynamics and finances can also play a role. Whatever the cause, we need to put forth our best faces and convince every Catalina 25-footer with whom we come into contact that we do indeed have a great National Association, and that it's a bargain for $22.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Dave,
Not as precipitous a drop as indicated by 390.
I do appreciate your post about using all the communications available to the Assoc.
If you use Duane's formula with 650 members, highest listed, (582 is also on the thread) you still get a small % of members using the forum.
58% of 650 is 377 members with a forum ID, 40% of that number is 151 members posting once a year, That has always been the point.
The entire membership is not informed by the forum and is therefore not able to be involved with governance of the Assoc.
Given that, there seems to be a fierce effort to keep the status quo and reduce the Assoc. to the forum, albeit led by a non-catalina owner.
Frustrating to us, and yes there is an US, but apparently the trend will continue.
Thanks Again
C25-Observer (John G- (Peregrine) & Concerned C25 owners)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 06:50:54

The anonymous "us" (except the one who was unmasked)... "Frustrated" by a "fierce effort" by some unnamed persons... (See blog for names and "playing rough".)

That says it all. ...or at least it should say enough.

BTW, who were the 570+ people who posted in the past year? (Oh, I guess two of them turned out to be really just one.) How many more just read silently, and even anonymously?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/16/2008 07:28:52

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