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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 13:04:17

I tend to agree with Steve Milby although, we might be giving far too much importance to a relative non-problem. I don't think I even knew that the "Members Feedback" forum existed until very recently.
My typical log-in page is under "Active Topics" which opens access to all forums (Fora???)

simultaneously. That way, the point becomes moot regarding whether or not one see a topic in a particular forum.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 14:40:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 [quote
I may be in the minority here, but I say keep the non-sailing topics and their associated petty bickering, complaining, and politicking, off of the Sailing Forums.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Don, I dont know if you are in the minority because PAID members have not made their feelings known, with one or two exceptions, but I agreee with you. I come to those sailing forums to chat about boating and I dont want to hear complaining. This is time to relax. I like your word "Oasis" to describe it. It is a place to escape.

Note I stressed PAID. Guests have no business complaining about the association. That will cost you $22. Hummm, that gives me food for thought. Guests CAN disagree with how to set an anchor, etc, however.

Now I am going sailing tomorrow and I just cant wait. And like these forums, if anyone complains, I toss them off! Ok I dont toss them off but I let them know no complaining allowed on my boat or they wont be invited back again. They shut up or they dont get invited back.

Have a great weekend!

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 14:49:48

Like John, I also log onto "Active Topics" when I first come to the site each day, actually every time I come to the site. I've read this entire thread, as well as the others about the election, finances, expulsion (well I started that one), ad nauseum.

Here are my thoughts should anyone care to listen:
<ul><li> I agree with Steve regarding rule six, it should be stricken from our bylaws. </li>
<li>I agree that the general forum should be renamed "General Sailing Forum" and kept as a place to talk about sailing stuff in general. I also agree that if the officers continue to post business items in the general forum, people will keep talking about non-sailing stuff in the general forum. Therefore we should have an association business forum, or continue to use the member feedback forum (possibly renamed to Association Business Forum) for conducting business. It's easy enough to make a sticky, closed topic at the top of the list that indicates that there is important business for members to read in the business forum. This forum should be kept open to the public, but unpaid guests would not have the ability to post or reply to posts. Once all business is conducted in the business forum, all business will eventually be conducted there, the folks just have to be conditioned to check there every once in a while. If they use the "Active Topics" link, like a lot of us do, they'll see that there is an active discussion going on and will be alerted to it. </li>
<li>I also agree that we should use rule 10 judiciously. Nobody wants to kick someone out, but I've seen other forums crash and burn because the bickering got out of hand to the point where no one wanted to listen anymore, and the forum simply died. I don't want that to happen here, if someone needs to be culled from the association, do so to prevent the agitation we've all experienced over the past couple of weeks. Who needs it? </li>
<li>I agree that people have the right to dissent, it's one of the basic rights we fight for in the free world all the time. And who doesn't like a good argument? The officers are at the pointy end of such dissent simply because they're elected and in our case volunteered to do so. Those that are unable to argue without remaining civil, can take their complaints somewhere else. And we can enforce that if necessary.</li></ul>

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 18:31:54

Amazing, isn't it? All I did was ask about the Association's financial statements and look where this thing has gone. These threads do tend to develop a life of their own!

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2008 : 08:37:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 [quote
I may be in the minority here, but I say keep the non-sailing topics and their associated petty bickering, complaining, and politicking, off of the Sailing Forums.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Don, I dont know if you are in the minority because PAID members have not made their feelings known, with one or two exceptions, but I agreee with you. I come to those sailing forums to chat about boating and I dont want to hear complaining. This is time to relax. I like your word "Oasis" to describe it. It is a place to escape.

Note I stressed PAID. Guests have no business complaining about the association. That will cost you $22. Hummm, that gives me food for thought. Guests CAN disagree with how to set an anchor, etc, however.

Now I am going sailing tomorrow and I just cant wait. And like these forums, if anyone complains, I toss them off! Ok I dont toss them off but I let them know no complaining allowed on my boat or they wont be invited back again. They shut up or they dont get invited back.

Have a great weekend!

Steve A

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Boy, that comment about PAID members came from out of nowhere! Somone might think that, since I have been a principal contributor to this discussion, it might have been aimed at me, but my dues are paid, as they were last year.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve, let me clear this up so there is no misunderstanding. First of all, I stand by what I said. I am a pretty black and white guy when it comes to this stuff. Guests, who can be members but not paid ones, have no business, to me, in the Member feedback forum, much less have to right to voice business concerns in any forum. That comes at a cost and its $22. If I do have hidden agenda, its to sign up more paid members.

Secondly, I know you are a paid member and past commodore so it was not a shot to you. I am sorry my words led you to think that and I apologize. Steve, I respect and admire what you have done for this association, I have gotten much from your contributions in the forums and its OK to disagree re this Rule 6 matter. I would like to drop this and move on.
Lets let the new officers make that decision.

Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 09/20/2008 08:45:04

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 11:03:03

Why is this issue so important? It’s important because it will determine how we members will be informed about the important business of the Association, and how we members will be able to discuss Association business among ourselves, and the extent to which we will be able to effectively exercise oversight over our officers. We have a choice to make. One choice is for us to have a free flow of information between the officers and members, and among all the members. That choice requires that we repeal Rule 6. The other choice is for us to allow the officers to relegate all discussions of Association business to a dark, seldom-visited corner of the Forum.

Some of you might think we don’t need to exercise oversight over our officers. You might think we’re all friends here, and that we don’t need to watch our officers, but you’d be wrong. About 15 years ago, our officers thought it would be a good idea if the Association would pay all their expenses to the national regatta. Because nobody was paying attention to what they were doing, they treated themselves to a nice trip and depleted the treasury. They were not a bunch of crooks. They actually rationalized it in their own minds, and persuaded themselves that doing so was in the best interests of the National Association. Occasionally, our officers have forgotten to attend to important business of the Association, such as the organization of the National Regatta, and they have had to be reminded. While I would not suggest that they should be excessively chastised for such a lapse, I certainly think the membership at large should know about such a lapse, because it is the kind of thing that should be considered by them in choosing their next officers. In the recent past, the officers had a real problem with a problem child, and they grossly overreacted to the problem in an effort to deal with it. As a result, they adopted Rule 6, which was wholly unnecessary, and which impedes the ability of all our members to keep apprised of ongoing Association business, to effectively discuss Association business among themselves, and which impedes their ability to effectively exercise oversight over the officers. You might think that the adoption of Rule 6 doesn’t affect you, but it does. It limits your ability to discuss Association business anywhere except that dark, seldom-visited corner of the forum, where the members rarely go. If you disregard Rule 6, you can expect to be reminded, by a well-meaning officer, that such posts are “inappropriate,” and could result in your expulsion from the forum. Isn’t there anything about Rule 6 that strikes you as being unwise and heavy handed?

If all discussions of Association business are moved elsewhere on the forum, you might think that you can keep informed about Association business simply by using the Active Threads feature. It’s true. You can do so, theoretically, but let’s not kid ourselves. When you open the Active Threads window and see that there has been a post in the Member Feedback forum, how often do you actually go to that thread, open it up and see what’s going on? Or, do you just ignore the Member Feedback forum and go to the other forums and talk about the more interesting sailing stuff? If you think the Member Feedback forum is widely read, look at the number of times each thread is read, and compare it with the number of times that a thread on the General Forum is read. The people who read the threads on the Member Feedback forum usually number in the tens. The people who read the threads on the General forum usually number in the hundreds. That means people aren’t reading the threads in the Member Feedback forum. That means the Association’s important business is relegated to the Member Feedback forum, and the overwhelming majority of our members won’t be receiving important information about Association business.

To date, the recent request that was made by a member on the General Forum for a Financial Report has been read 1323 times. Does anyone believe that it would have been so widely read, if it had been originally posted on the Member Feedback forum? If so, I suspect it would have set a new record.

You can keep the General Forum pure, if you really think that’s important. You can limit the General Forum to discussions of sailing only, excluding any discussion related to the business of this Association, if you think the business of the Association is so unimportant that you are willing to bury it where few will read it.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 13:04:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 The choice is for us to allow the officers to relegate all discussions of Association business to a dark, seldom-visited corner of the Forum.
About 15 years ago, our officers thought it would be a good idea if the Association would pay all their expenses to the national regatta. Because nobody was paying attention to what they were doing, they treated themselves to a nice trip and depleted the treasury. In the recent past, the officers had a real problem with a problem child, and they grossly overreacted to the problem in an effort to deal with it. As a result, they adopted Rule 6, which was wholly unnecessary,
If you think the Member Feedback forum is widely read, look at the number of times each thread is read, and compare it with the number of times that a thread on the General Forum is read.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Steve, you bring up several important issues. First, I agree Association business is placed in a dark, seldom-visited corner of the Forum. But Steve, since this issue has been posted in the General Forum, I can count on 1 hand how many members-excluding current and past officers- have posted some type of response.

The Member Feedback Forum, as you correctly state Steve, is rarely visited. I myself recently visited it for the first time probably because of running for treasurer and your challenging nature(and I mean that in a positive way). If elected I for one will suggest that be changed to be placed in a top position, with flashing lights for critical issues, not is the current dark one at the bottom. I am not sure if that will even work as I just stated above however. And look how many members have taken the time to vote. I was informed when I asked that 31(out of 600) had. Lets face it, its human nature to let others run things. I dont have to tell your about our own government. Its human nature, unfortunately. I hope the new board is open to change that.

Second, Your concern re the spending of officers is valid. I went again to the by-laws and did not see anything about officers expense accounts. Under Nationals, I did see secton E stating: The Association’s sponsorship of the Nationals also comes in the form of temporarily funding upfront expenditures and deposits, and provision of a “stop gap” for any reasonable losses incurred by the Fleet for hosting the Nationals", but this has nothing to do with paying their expenses for a Regatta, in my opinion.

Sounds like we need to amend the by-laws to address spending by the officers, good guys that they are. I dont know if the members were asked to approve this expenditure and nobody spoke up or it was placed in the minutes and not read. I dont know. And I am surprised if this happened 15 years ago, how come the officers since then did not amended the by-laws to prevent this from happening again.

Finally re Rule 6 that it was implemented to deal with a "problem child", I thought that Rule 7 and 8 should address that problem. Rule 6 appears to apply to more mundane day to day issues.

Steve, at least you and I agree in principle but see different paths to those issues. Perhaps you and I and a couple others even care. But someone has to, right?

Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 09/21/2008 13:19:34

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 19:31:01

Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I may be in the minority here, but I say keep the non-sailing topics and their associated petty bickering, complaining, and politicking, off of the Sailing Forums.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Don, I dont know if you are in the minority because PAID members have not made their feelings known,...

Note I stressed PAID. Guests have no business complaining about the association. That will cost you $22. Hummm, that gives me food for thought. Guests CAN disagree with how to set an anchor, etc, however.

Steve A <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 
Boy, that comment about PAID members came from out of nowhere! Somone might think that, since I have been a principal contributor to this discussion, it might have been aimed at me, but my dues are paid, as they were last year.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Steve, let me clear this up so there is no misunderstanding. First of all, I stand by what I said. I am a pretty black and white guy when it comes to this stuff. Guests, who can be members but not paid ones, have no business, to me, in the Member feedback forum, much less have to right to voice business concerns in any forum. That comes at a cost and its $22. If I do have hidden agenda, its to sign up more paid members.

Steve A<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve A,

For being a "black and white" guy, your comments, which appear to have even taken Mr. Milby aback, are anything but black and white?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Secondly, I know you are a paid member...

Steve A<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm curious, how do you "know" Steve Milby is a paid member?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 21:07:22

I'd like to point out a couple of "mechanical" considerations about the forums...

1. The "Active Topics" list is somewhat transitory--it can show you a list of what you haven't seen since your last log-in, but if you post to a topic, the "Active Topics" can change--other things you haven't viewed yet might no longer be among them. So the "dark corner" can become darker.

2. Member Feedback is not grouped under Sailor's Forums, which is likely to be the grouping you see when you're navigating the forums. Unless you go to All Forums (a rarity for me), you won't know that the Member Feedback forum is there, or that there's a recent posting in it--especially if your "Active Topics" has lost track of it.

3. As an old software guy, I suspect there are some practical limits on what we can do with this "canned" Snitz forum software. Making a particular forum available only to paid members might not be feasible, and even making something "flash" might not be practical either, without some serious programming (which in turn makes upgrades that much more difficult). Even my earlier "Guest" suggestion might not be practical, because it will likely require an ongoing manual administrative task. Switching to other software (you can see several others when you visit other group forums) would possibly cause us to lose our extensive collection of topics, including our archives, unless (again) we invested in a major data conversion project.

BTW, like Steve, I'm a paid member, but as a DPO, ineligible to vote. My interest here is strictly in an active, lively, supportive association. I agree with the need to re-think Rule 6. Members should know about and participate in discussions on important association issues, and non-members should know there's an association making all of this possible--not just a bunch of people roaming through cyberspace. None of us should take this for granted--there is some work to be done and some issues to consider in making an association like this thrive. Even an "oasis" needs some maintenance.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 22:32:03

Don, I have no special access to who is paid and who is not if that is what you are leading to.
I believe in some prior post Steve stated he was a member but non voting or vice verse. I am not sure I understand your question. I do feel like Dave making non paying members guests.

Dave, I am not a programmer so I am not sure how to set it up but know someone can, at what cost is another question. Your points are well taken.

RE your statement. "Members should know...... Even an "oasis" needs some maintenance", I agree wholeheartedly.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 09/21/2008 22:40:12

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2008 : 06:14:12

As a current software guy

, Dave is correct, the current forum would need either cu$tom programing or very heavy maintainence, and data extraction would be expen$ive. I'm pretty certain there's no auto feature that would meet the suggestions. Sorry folks. Of course, we could have a totally seperate forum for members, but that would suffer as indicated by SteveM et.al. -- it would get a little attention.

I think we just need to adopt the 4 way test.

(The 4 Way Test...of what we think, say or do!)
Is it the truth
Is it fair to all concerned
Will be build good will and better friendships
Will it be beneficial to all concerned

Unless the answers are all 'yes', then don't say it, don't do it, and stop thinking about it.

I'm also a John Lennon Fan. Imagine.....

Paul

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2008 : 09:09:31

In the two years I've been a member to this association it seems rule 6 hasn't really been enforced. People have spoken their minds but it doesn't consume the "general forum", the off sailing topics are probably at about 2 or 3%. I think business topics must be posted here particularly because of folks who come for some "escapism". Heck they'd never look at the business forum. It may be a bit of a pain occasionally but in my opinion a necessary one. 86 rule #6 .......

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2008 : 10:50:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 
Steve, you bring up several important issues. First, I agree Association business is placed in a dark, seldom-visited corner of the Forum. But Steve, since this issue has been posted in the General Forum, I can count on 1 hand how many members-excluding current and past officers- have posted some type of response.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> It doesn't matter whether members are posting responses to this thread. What matters is that the members are reading this thread. By doing so, they are becoming informed about all the ramifications of both sides of this discussion. As I am writing this, this thread has been read 1493 times. That means it has been read more than almost any other thread on the General Forum page. It is not only being read by the officers, but it is also being read with interest by many members, who are returning to read each new installment in the discussion. Likewise, there have been more responses to this thread than almost any thread on the General Forum page. What that means is, despite their protestations that they don't want to discuss Association business on the General Forum, many members are enjoying the discussion. More importantly, however, they will be able to cast their vote knowledgeably, if they are asked to do so on the issue of whether Rule 6 should be repealed or amended. If the members aren't well-informed, then they will be forced to trust the recommendations of the officers, which might be self-serving. If this discussion was started on the Member Feedback forum, it would not be read by nearly so many members as on the general forum. That plain fact is admitted by all.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Member Feedback Forum, as you correctly state Steve, is rarely visited. I myself recently visited it for the first time probably because of running for treasurer and your challenging nature(and I mean that in a positive way). If elected I for one will suggest that be changed to be placed in a top position, with flashing lights for critical issues, not is the current dark one at the bottom. I am not sure if that will even work as I just stated above however. And look how many members have taken the time to vote. I was informed when I asked that 31(out of 600) had. Lets face it, its human nature to let others run things. I dont have to tell your about our own government. Its human nature, unfortunately. I hope the new board is open to change that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Most us see this forum as an opportunity to escape from our work-a-day world, and we want to jealously guard our private sanctum from the intrusions of business concerns, but, we cannot forget that the National Association is a business. It certainly isn't a very complex business, and it doesn't make many demands on us, but it is a business nonetheless, and if we don't take care of the Association's business first and foremost, then it might not be there to provide us the escape that we seek, and the helpful information that it offers.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Second, Your concern re the spending of officers is valid. I went again to the by-laws and did not see anything about officers expense accounts. Under Nationals, I did see secton E stating: The Association’s sponsorship of the Nationals also comes in the form of temporarily funding upfront expenditures and deposits, and provision of a “stop gap” for any reasonable losses incurred by the Fleet for hosting the Nationals", but this has nothing to do with paying their expenses for a Regatta, in my opinion.

Sounds like we need to amend the by-laws to address spending by the officers, good guys that they are. I dont know if the members were asked to approve this expenditure and nobody spoke up or it was placed in the minutes and not read. I dont know. And I am surprised if this happened 15 years ago, how come the officers since then did not amended the by-laws to prevent this from happening again.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You can't write a law or Rule that prohibits stupidity. The best way we can prevent the possibility that our officers might make a foolish, poorly thought-out decision is to shine as much daylight on the matter as is possible. The best place for that to happen is on the General Forum, where most of our members gather. The worst place is on the Member Feedback forum, where nobody ever goes.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Finally re Rule 6 that it was implemented to deal with a "problem child", I thought that Rule 7 and 8 should address that problem. Rule 6 appears to apply to more mundane day to day issues.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Rules 7 and 8 adequately address the problem child. There is nothing mundane about what Rule 6 does. Rule 6 is overly broad in its reach, because it isn't limited in its reach to the problem child. It directly affects every member of the association. It prohibits all of us, including the officers, from discussing matters relating to the Association's business on the General Forum. Moreover, it provides that you and I can suffer the penalty of expulsion for violating Rule 6. If we commit the sin of talking about a matter of legitimate, important Association business on the General forum, we can be banished. Perhaps you think that would never happen, but remember that, earlier in this discussion, we were politely informed that Rule 6 prohibits such talk on the General Forum, and that the penalty is expulsion. Am I the only person who thinks that both the rule and the penalty are inappropriate, because they interfere with the free flow of information to and from and among the members about legitimate Association business? As long as the rule remains, it can be used to silence you, either by expulsion or by intimidation.

Perhaps the best evidence that can be provided to demonstrate the fatal flaws of Rule 6 is the fact that everyone violates it, including the officers. And, if that wasn't enough, we are now being told that Rule 6 isn't going to be enforced. If everyone is violating it, and it isn't going to be enforced, then it's time to repeal it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/22/2008 11:24:22

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2008 : 21:05:16

Bravo Steve,
Watching you make rational and logical arguments to open up the dialogue of the Association is humbling.
I always railed against the closing of the discussion, you are showing the way to have a meaningful dialogue in a civil way.
I have always been a bull in a china shop your posts are important and helpful.

I would only add that we need to use all means of communication available to the members.
Which is why I wrote in my candidates post;

I am running for Secretary because it is the best position to expand the communication among paying members, to reach out to new members and to keep up the value of our boats in front of sailors everywhere.
The forum is a terrific asset but it does not reach out to the community it is passive.
Merely posting on the forum that the TaleTales are available means they sit unread.
The current issue of Mainsheet does not fill one page of our allotted space and has no mention of local fleets at all.I believe that a combination of the Forum, a robust Mainsheet and a mass mailed TaleTells will help keep our members informed and active as well as reach out to other owners and interested sailors looking for a great, affordable boat.
Indeed I would like to see more articles in the Mainsheet and an effort to get them published in local and national publications to push our stories as far as possible.

John Gisondi
Peregrine - C25 #4762
Mainsheet Editor 2002-2006

Edited by - Peregrine on 09/23/2008 21:06:38

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2008 : 10:29:16

This is a discussion, among friends, of important association business. Some people on both sides of the discussion have tried to bring light to the discussion, while others have only brought heat.

Some of the participants have demonstrated that they can't see the forest for the trees. They're so focussed on debating small, insignificant factoids that they are completely missing the big picture.

This is, plain and simply, an issue of freedom of expression. The foundation of all our freedoms in this country is our freedom to discuss any issue of importance to us, without fear of reprisal. We are, and should be, free to either praise or criticise our government, as we see fit. The United States Supreme Court says that the government can impose certain reasonable limitations on the time and place when and where you can exercise your right to free speech. The best known example is the prohibition against falsely yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre. But, such limitations are very narrowly drawn. No restriction on our liberty can be imposed which materially encroaches on our overall ability to freely express ourselves. If, for example, the government passed a law that only allowed us to criticise the government at a certain location, such as 123 Oak Street in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and imposed the death penalty for violating that law, it would clearly be invalid. It would be invalid because it would deprive citizens of any effective opportunity to speak freely. It would be unduly burdensome for you to travel to that location, and, once you got there, nobody would be there to hear you. It would render your right to speak out against your government an empty, useless right. Moreover, the extreme penalty imposed for a violation of that law would intimidate citizens from ever challenging that law.

Now you might be saying, "What does this have to do with our little Association?" The officers of this Association are, in effect, the "government" of the Association. After they were confronted with "endless complaining, bickering and questions about membership," Duane wrote Rule 6, and either the officers or the webmaster, or somebody decided to adopt it (So far, nobody has "claimed credit" for it, so we really don't know whether anyone with authority to do so, formally adopted it as a by-law of this Association.)

Nevertheless, I'm not particularly concerned about the technical legality of the rule. What I'm concerned about is that Rule 6 does not just deprive our members of their right to criticize the officers on the General Forum, but it goes waaaay beyond that, and deprives the members from even discussing any Association business on the General Forum,, whether by way of a compliment or a criticism. But, in fairness to Rule 6, it doesn't deprive us of our right to discuss Association business at every time and place. It allows us to talk about it in a dark corner of the forum, where nobody ever goes, and, if we attempt to talk about it in any other place, we can be expelled. That deprives all our members of their freedom to speak out on the matters which are important to us in a place where our thoughts and opinions are likely to be heard. That might not seem important to some of you, but it's important to me.

For those of you who are only interested in quibbling over "who said what," and "who shot John," and "whether the purity of my General Forum is going to be deflowered," I'll leave you to debate that with all the heat you can engender. I'm only concerned with the serious issues.

I know that a lot of people have been sitting on the sidelines, reading these discussions, and they have been reserving their opinions. It's time for you to start expressing your views. As I see it, you have four choices.

(1) You can sit quietly and let someone else decide what if any limitations will be imposed on your freedom of expression.

(2) You can speak out in favor of keeping Rule 6, which will, as I have explained, prevent you from engaging in even the most innocent discussion of Association business on the General Forum, and subject you to expulsion if you violate that rule. Such discussions will, however, be permitted in a dark corner of the Forum, where nobody ever goes, called the Association Business Forum.

(3) You can support the proposal that is now being made to "cut the baby in half." That proposal is, in essence, to keep Rule 6, which will prevent you from engaging in even the most innocent discussion of Association business on the General Forum, and subject you to expulsion if you violate that rule. Such discussions will, however, be permitted in a dark corner of the Forum, where nobody ever goes, called the Association Business Forum. BUT, that forum will be moved to a more prominent place on the forum's web page, in the unrealistic hope that by doing so, we members will be motivated to actually click on that page and read the boring, mundane stuff that will usually be found there.

(4) You can speak out in support of repealing Rule 6, which will preserve your freedom to courteously discuss your legitimate concerns with Association business on the General Forum, with no fear of reprisals. Most of the discussion on the General Forum will relate to sailing, but there will occasionally be discussions like this one, and announcements relating to the election of officers, and other non-sailing discussions that will be important to you, and that should not be buried in a dark corner of the forum. If Rule 6 is repealed, that does not mean that personal attacks can be made during any discussions. That conduct is prohibited now, by other Rules which will remain unchanged.

This is your Association and your forum. I believe it is in your best interests to choose the fourth option. If, however, you do not, I have no intention of debating it further. The choice is yours, and I will respect any choice you, the members, make. Dave Bristle and I have done our part.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2008 : 16:56:47

I would support the 4th choice - get rid of Rule 6. I do not have a concern with someone stating their beefs/opinions. If it occupies a topic or two on the General Forum ...seems like a good place for it. Some people thrive on the bickering while others get so ticked off...yet they can't stay away from it. So...if it entertains, so be it. Also airs concerns and hopefully serves to strengthen the Association. Anyway, the vast majority of postings are sailboat technical or on-board related and not what happens in the back room.

I have not read the other rules but as long as there are rules that allow for dealing with those that are strictly visiting the Forum to to put gibberish on the postings, then I support deleting Rule 6.

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Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2008 : 18:04:17

1st opinion: You all should be commended. The civil/adult manner in which you've discussed this issue sets an example for other boards to follow. Most assuredly, other boards would quickly crash and burn attempting a discussion such as this.

2nd opinion: How can a rule that was never formally adopted exist? If it does because it does,then that's the way it is. But you can also bet that there is no set of rules out there in existence that doesn't need tweaking now and then. That's life...things change.

3rdly: I'm not in trouble for posting this, am I?

Intermission time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSOCfEZC7jU&feature=related

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2008 : 23:19:25

My position, which I won't restate here, is in the "dark corner" (Member Feedback Forum). In essence, it's to rearrange and rename the forums, rewrite and the rules, and vote to legitimize them...

But I was reminded by a past officer who will remain nameless unless he chooses to chime in, that these "rules" are not "association bylaws" requiring a vote of the members, because the forums are open to all, including non-members, and the rules are to apply to all, including any non-members--so they're not association "bylaws" under our constitution. Thus they are not subject to membership approval. That's his view, and it might be technically correct, but it's not necessarily mine.

I feel like the internet and these forums have transformed this association into a net community, and that rules that could expel a member or guest from that community are in effect our new bylaws, and deserve membership ratification. (I'm not particularly concerned about ratification of Forum Rules by the members who only read the magazine.)

Steve Milby's concerns might not seem relevant at the moment, but they were at one time (or maybe two), and as the US financial crisis suggests, they could be again some day. An association can only remain vital if it is prepared to deal with some adversity. Rules should be enforceable and enforced, and unenforced rules are not enforceable.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/25/2008 23:34:02

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 12:25:58

I agree that Rule 6 should be nixed. I don't like the idea that topics regarding association business are forbidden on the General Forum. although I just renewed my membership, when I was a paid member previously I seldom visited the Members Feedback section. It was out of sight and out of mind.

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