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Balanced Rudder & Weather helm

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frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/14/2002 : 20:10:18

Today 9/14 i was out in my first good blow here on Long Island, and noticed (2) things.

First while on a starboard tack close hauled I felt that i was fighting the tiller to keep her off the wind. Is this a sign of too much weather helm? If so should I loosen my backstay to straighten the mast bend towards the bow?

Also when under power the rudder is constantly pulsating, and this got a bit tiresome. Does the new balanced rudder stop this? I do have a rather large 3 bladed prop on my Yamaha 9.9

thanks for the replies
Frank Rich
84 C25 SK

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2002 : 23:21:03

Frank:

If she's trying to head up, that's "weather helm." If it's excessive (there should be a little), there are a few remedies...

(1) Sail trim--ease the main a little relative to the headsail.

(2) Rig--move the mast forward a little--as you said, by easing the backstay and tightening the forestay. Adjust your lowers accordingly and you can still have some bend (if you can actually bend a C-25 mast).

(3) Reefing and flattening--if you're overpowered and heeling excessively, the hull will add to the turning moment while the rudder will have less purchase. A vang or flattening reef depowers the main, as does keeping your traveler (for what it's worth) to the leeward side.

The balanced rudder doesn't reduce weather helm, per se, but makes it less noticable by requiring less force on the tiller. The rudder still has to offset the turning forces the same way, and creates just as much drag in doing so. But it's easier on the hand and arm.

The pulsating could be from worn gudgeons, and may have something to do with the foil shape of the original rudder. Ours pulsed when we bought her... Some have added nylon bushings in the gudgeon holes--I replaced my lower gudgeon and added the balanced rudder (with a very different foil shape). No pulsating--I don't know which component had more to do with that.

I suppose that if your motor is mounted on starboard and in the water on a starboard tack, the drag could contribute little to weather helm on that side, but I doubt it--especially if you have it out of gear.

Nice that you could get out today--tomorrow won't be very nice.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/15/2002 21:44:40

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2002 : 10:28:14

If you have to pull hard on the tiller to keep your boat from heading up to windward, then you have too much weather helm. (This assumes that you are flying approximately the correct size sails for the amount of wind, and that your sails are properly trimmed.) Excessive weather helm causes drag, which slows the boat significantly, and makes you arm-weary. Whether you have the balanced rudder or the standard rudder, you can eliminate excessive weather helm by adjusting all the shrouds and stays so that the mast leans slightly more forward. Start adjusting the rig by letting out the backstay turnbuckle about 3 turns, and then tighten the headstay turnbuckle 3 turns. Then readjust the lowers on both sides accordingly. Sail the boat and see if the tiller pressure is still too strong. If so, adjust the headstay and backstay about 3 more turns, and again adjust the lowers accordingly. Continue adjusting the rig forward until the tiller pressure is light, but do not completely eliminate weather helm. A slight amount of weather helm is necessary for safety, but you can minimize it.

Excessive weather helm can be caused by improper sail trim. When beating to windward in moderate to strong winds with a 150% genoa, the sail should be trimmed in until it is about 6-9” from the spreader. In the gusts, dacron sailcloth will stretch, and the distance from the spreader will increase. When that happens, you should pull the jibsheet in until the distance is about 6-9”. When the wind gust eases, and the jib is closer than 6-9” to the spreader, you should ease the jibsheet back out.

When you have excessive weather helm, try easing the mainsheet traveller to leeward, until the mainsail begins to luff slightly. If you ease the traveller all the way and the boat is still experiencing excessive weather helm, it is time to think about reducing the size of your headsail, and perhaps tucking a reef in your mainsail.

Excessive weather helm can also be caused by carrying too much sail in too much wind. The only remedy is to reduce sail area.

Yesterday we were racing, and I was flying my 150% genoa, and had a flattening reef in the mainsail in the maximum amount of wind for a 150. Nevertheless, I could take my hand off the tiller for 5-6 seconds without the boat rounding up, and could hold it on course easily with the thumb and forefinger, except in the strongest gusts, when we were clearly overpowered.

The only causes I can think of for pulsations of the rudder are (1) worn pintles or gudgeons, or (2) the rudder is moving through turbulent water. When you sail, do you tilt the motor up so that the prop is clear of the water, or do you sail with the prop in the water? The pulsation in your rudder could be caused by turbulence off the prop, or turbulence off the keel. It could be caused by turbulence resulting from algae or other dirt or grease on the keel or rudder. Try tilting the motor up out of the water, and scrubbing your bottom, keel and rudder, and see if that helps. If you are sailing in an area where there is a lot of seaweed, sometimes seaweed can get tangled around the rudder and cause turbulence. There should not be any pulsation in the rudder, whether it is the factory original or the balanced rudder.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2002 : 16:48:58

Thanks Steve & Dave I will try those things next weekend!!

Frank Rich
84 C25 SK

Edited by - on

Ellis Bloomfield
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2002 : 20:39:34

"Try tilting the motor up out of the water, and scrubbing your bottom," (Milby)

Unless your bottom looks as good as the one on the general forum, you might do it at home in private!

Edited by - on

Cruising Direct Sailmaker
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 09:55:01

About the backstay...

You can loosen it long term...but pulling it on, if it is adjustable, will help loose the weather helm. The backstay dumps the leech to leeward and depowers the main.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 21:05:06

With all due respect to Cruising Direct, his prescription assumes you're bending the mast. I don't know how much a standard-height C-25 mast bends under reasonable tensions with our masthead rig--I'd expect to use an adjustable backstay (which I don't have) to tension the forestay to flatten the genoa on a beat, but not much more.

The most effective solution to weather helm is moving the mast forward--our rigger left ours a little too far forward (after I had added the mast plate under the tabernacle), and I found that I had some lee helm. On our standard rig with a 130, a virtually plumb mast is just about ideal--a very light weather helm.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 10:53:25

When I owned a Spirit 23 I had a shoal keel with a centerboard. To trim helm pressure you cranked up the centerboard a little moving the center of lateral resistance back and lessening the weather helm. Does that work on the swing keel? I assume it would.

Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

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