Association Forum - More headsail questions

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

More headsail questions

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

lancej
1st Mate

Member Avatar

81 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/08/2003 : 16:01:40

I know this subject has been aske to death, but I'll bring it up again. My 150 roller furled genny gave up the ghost a few weeks back, and I'm limping until the end of the season on a lame patch job. So over the long cold Buffalo winter I will be having a new one made, and I am requesting some (any) advice. I curently have a old, old 150, with no shape when furled at all, ad really bad shape even when out all the way. It is old, and I suspect, poorly cut. It came with the boat, what can I say? It seems to be cut out of too heavy a cloth, in light air (5 knots?) it seems to just "hang", with the mass of the cloth preventing it from filling at all. As the breeze picks up it works OK with the lack of shape that can be expected with an old sail. I usually start reefing at around 12-14 knots. With any more than about a turn or so reefed in, the shape goes totally bad, as does my ability to point. So what should I look for in a roller furled all purpose headsail? Most people seem to be using a 150, is that the best of the compromises? When do most of you start to furl in? Does anyone reef the main before the genny to try to maintain acceptable shape with reduced sail area? Does anyone have a genny that maintains a good shape as it is furled? Why does winter have to come? Why can't I understand women?....Oh sorry, wrong forum. But thanks in advance for any help. For the record I have an '85 standard/fin.

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1595 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 17:20:51

When you furl do you move your cars forward to accomodate the new sail shape/size. If you dont this will cause the realy pooor shape. I have painted marks on my car track so I instantly know where to set the cars when I furl in.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 19:29:31

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>When do most of you start to furl in? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The C-25 is driven by two sails (the main and genoa). If the wind increases until the boat is overpowered and heeling excessively, release the mainsheet completely, and let the mainsail luff. If that amply cures the excessive heeling of the boat, then tuck a reef in the mainsail. If, however, the boat continues to heel excessively, or is borderline in that regard, when it is being powered by the genoa alone, then tuck a reef in the mainsail and partially furl the genoa.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Does anyone reef the main before the genny to try to maintain acceptable shape with reduced sail area? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The mainsail is more responsible than the genoa for excessive heeling and excessive tiller pressure. Therefore, when you are experiencing excessive heeling and excessive tiller pressure, you should start reducing the area of the mainsail first. That is not to say that you can't do it otherwise. Recently I sailed in very strong winds with an unreefed mainsail and a storm jib, because it was easier for an aging singlehander to stand on the coach roof and raise and lower the mainsail than to stand on the bow and raise and lower a 110% jib. It wasn't optimal, but it worked all right.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> So what should I look for in a roller furled all purpose headsail? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Sails are made of differing weights of sailcloth, depending on where and how you plan to use them. When I ordered my sails, I told the sailmaker that I intended to use the boat mostly for racing and daysailing on a small inland lake. North suggested a 5.5 ounce cloth, as I recall. It seemed very stiff and heavy when it was new, but it worked great from the very beginning. We discussed several available options, and, when I confessed that I did't understand what he was talking about, he patiently explained them to me. A reliable sailmaker should be able to guide you, if you give him the information.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 21:40:09

I second Steve's suggestion to talk with a sailmaker. That dialog will be more productive than anything that can happen here. However, I would question the sailmaker on whether a 150 is the best sail for your purposes. I've sailed with 150+ headsails on other boats, and have a 130 on ours... For daysailing and cruising, I prefer the slightly smaller headsail for ease of shaping to windward, filling downwind, and general ease of tacking. But I don't race our boat.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 07:07:32

In my experience it is unwise to furl/reef any sail larger than 135. There is simply too much cloth to deal with over too broad a range of reefing to expect any kind of decent sail shape. Note that I used the term reefing. Not all headsail devices are reefers. A product that only claims to be a furler should not be expected to have the component strength to hold a sail in a partially unfurled position. Furlers also will not have the aerodynamic luff treatments required on reefers. There is a reason the Harken is so expensive. Sail shape! I mentioned in another post that J24 150s work out to be 135s for us, (hmm laminate). Those guys replace sails early. You might buy a used one and see how you like the 135 without the investment of a new sail in a size you are not sure of. They use Tough Luff though and it will not have foam on the luff. I assume it could be added.

Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 17:16:20

I recently purchased a 150 for my 1988 tall rig with wing keel. I often regret not getting a 130 or 135 instead. First, the wing keel is very shallow and thus heels excesivly at the upper end of the sails wind range, around 10 to 12 knots. Secondly, and most importantly, the 150 "blankets" the main to windward making the main difficult to properly trim without excessive vang and main sheet traveler tension. In the end the main stalls and I'm forced to sail with only half the main driving the boat. In my opinion a 135 would have been a better sail selection for this boat.

Al Eckhart
GALLIVANT
#5801

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 19:16:17

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the 150 "blankets" the main to windward making the main difficult to properly trim<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I also use a 150 on my tall rig, but I don't understand how the genoa could possibly "blanket" the main upwind. For one thing, the main is not behind the genoa upwind. The main should complement the genoa in its diverting the air flow around the sails, giving balance to the sails and power to the boat. Are you using your telltales to make sure your genoa is trimmed correctly? If so, what shape is your main in? If it's got a big belly more than halfway back, then it may be blown.

With regards to healing, even with my fin keel I've got to reef at around 15 knots (or less with a lot of gusting and a screaming admiral).

If you're sailing a good portion of the time in less than 15 knot winds, that 150 should be fine and groovy.

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 22:17:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I don't understand how the genoa could possibly "blanket" the main upwind. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

It sounds like what Al is saying is that the 150 backwinds the mainsail when beating to windward in strong winds. When the wind is so strong that the 150 starts to backwind the mainsail, then it is time to reef the mainsail. As Al says, when that happens, “I'm forced to sail with only half the main driving the boat.” In that situation, Al, the headsail is providing most of the forward thrust. The mainsail is responsible for a lot of the heeling moment. When the 150 starts to backwind the mainsail you reef the mainsail to reduce heeling moment, and to flatten the mainsail. Reducing the size of the mainsail greatly reduces the heeling moment. Flattening the mainsail increases the width of the slot between the 150 and the mainsail, so that an increased volume of air can pass through the slot without backwinding the mainsail. Because most of your forward drive is provided by the 150, and much less is provided by the mainsail, you aren’t losing much driving force by reefing the mainsail. In that situation, the primary purpose of the small mainsail is not so much to drive the boat, but to help the boat point to windward.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

lancej
1st Mate

Members Avatar

81 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 08:18:15

Thanks for the input! I sail on Lake Erie, the winds can go form 3-5 to 20+ back to 3-5 within an hour. Would a 135 be enough to even move the boat in 3-5 knots? That is my concern with going for anything less than a 150. I guess I could inventory an asymetrical, but they are a pain (arn't they?) to fly for the average joe, and they certainly won't do anything to help you point in a light blow. I do not have a tall rig, how does that change the situation? I am suspecting that it is the cut of my sail and not the size that gives me issues. I have only one set of reefing points on my main, I am thinking of adding another set, as well as adding reefing lines for the main to the cockpit, to help with that situation.

I have a furlex roller furler, that is capable of reefing duty, so that isn't a problem, and yes I move the lead cars foreward when furling, but the sail still loses all shape when furled much more that a roll or two. It becomes exceedingly hard to sail to windward as no matter how much I fall off it shakes like dog drying himself. With the jib furled, can't get much closer than 50 deg. to the wind.

Thanks!!

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 09:13:20

From my personal experience, my 110 jib in 5 knots will move me along just fine. Won't win any races or risk planing with it, but sometimes it's just the ticket on one of those 3-5 then 20+ days. Typically though, if the winds are less than 15, I'll use the 150. My head sails are hanked on.

2 sets of reef points makes sense on a great lake.

Your dilema of which head sail to choose seems like a common one for roller furlings. A light cloth 150 is great for 5-10 knots, but would have to be substantially rolled in for big wind. There's no way around the fact that a rolled in head sail is not going to perform well (bad shape). If you spend a lot of time in heavy wind, halfway rolled up with a light cloth sail, you run the risk of stretching half your head sail, yielding a wierd shape even when you're unfurled. I don't know how easy it is for you to change sails with your rig, but Would it be possible to invest in 2 head sail? 150 & 110?

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 13:44:28

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Would a 135 be enough to even move the boat in 3-5 knots? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

A 135 will move a boat very well in light air, and it can also handle quite a bit of wind, if you trim it well. If you can only have one sail, a 135 can handle a wide range of winds. For people who buy two hanked-on sails, the most common choice is a 150 and a 110, because the 150 is slightly better in lighter winds, and the 110 is better in stronger winds. The two of them together can be used in a wider range of winds than a 135.

I have experimented a lot by using my 110 in light air races, and have found that it is often nearly the equal of the 150 going to windward. When running downwind with the jib poled out, the smaller size of the 110 is a very slight disadvantage, but not so much that you can’t make up for it fairly easily if you can find a little faster course or keep the boat in the puffs. This all presupposes that the bottom and keel are clean and smooth. When you are trying to use a smaller sail than your opponents, you can’t waste any sailpower on a foul bottom. If the bottom and keel are race-ready, the boat is able to accelerate more easily, and maintain its speed, in a slight breeze with less sail area.

When you are tacking a 150 in very light air, sometimes you have to send crew forward to walk the sail around the rigging, because the wind might be too light to blow the sail over. If you use a 110 in light air, the sail is much less likely to snag when you tack, and you usually don’t have to have crew walk it around.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> …the sail still loses all shape when furled much more than a roll or two. It becomes exceedingly hard to sail to windward as no matter how much I fall off it shakes like dog drying himself.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Have you tried putting a little tension on the jib’s leechline? That usually quiets the leech of my jib when it starts shaking like that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> With the jib furled, can't get much closer than 50 deg. to the wind. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

50 deg. isn’t bad for a furled 150. 45 deg. is about what you have to expect for a race-tuned C-25 with hanked-on sails.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I have only one set of reefing points on my main, I am thinking of adding another set….<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think that’s a good idea on Lake Erie. If you only have a single reef in your mainsail, then when winds come along that overpower that much sail area, you have to choose between either dropping one of the sails completely (which leaves you with an unbalanced sail plan, and makes the boat very hard to maneuver), or you have to lower all sails, which leaves you with no significant control over the direction of the boat. (Your outboard isn’t going to help in those conditions.) If you can’t reduce your sail area enough to keep control of the boat in strong winds, you have a real problem. You probably wouldn’t need the second set of reef points very often, but if it saves your butt just once, it’s worth having.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.