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Sailing without a vang

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/13/2008 : 11:57:59

Never used a vang on this boat. I'm on a relatively small lake with 38,000 acres, 27 miles long on 47 miles of riverbed and the land around the lake has a bit of an incline. The winds can change directions a lot. I keep the main in and the sheet keeps the boom at bay and reduces accidental jibes.

I get where I'm going fast enough so power going up the main is no big deal just a nosier rig. On most points of sail it's not a problem.

I usually go downwind on one side or the other, not using a spanker.

It not like I'm really sailing, it's "Lake sailing" which has it own merits. I work like a dog, so when I can go it kinda like jailbreak sailing . . . whenever you can make it over the wall but rarely more than one night out and it's back in the pen.

Landlocked and making the best of it.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2008 : 16:15:12

Because of the rather limited travel on the stock traveller, vang-sheeting becomes especially important.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2008 : 20:04:06

Why do you not want to use a vang? It is easy to set up and, though we also primarily lake sail, it is one of the controls that we use every time out. There are many times when we want to keep the boom down without bringing the boom to midship. I guess I don't see how you could do that without a vang.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 00:29:02

Yeah, like Randy said, it's just one of those controls that add to your feel for the wind.

After you hoist the sails with the jib and main halyards, and set the jib sheet and use the main sheet for the tack you choose, all the other lines only add to your sailing ease and let your boat sail to its potential:
- boom vang - holds/releases the boom down, especially on a run
- cunningham - flattens/loosens the luff of the mainsail
- mainsail outhaul - flattens/loosens the foot of the mainsail

and the other lines on the poles and on the jib, main, and spinnaker let you use the wind more to your advantage.

You can do without any of them and sail back home...with a raincoat held on a broomstick...if you have to, but it's nicer with all the other stuff.

Plus, if you have a boom vang, then you are able to sing the commercial every time you tighten your vang:

"Boom vang, boom vang, tastes great!!!
Boom vang, boom vang, can't wait!!!"

That's why I love my boom vang.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 06:28:23

It is funny that different controls bother me at different times. I'm not using a vang and no sweat, but not having a topping lift is starting to drive me crazy. I keep seeing a closed leech.

I usta windsurf and the beautiful sail shape they have makes me kringe at the main on the lina. I guess I'll hafta have a fully battened main one day.

No vang and hey.. no winch handle.

Inland Sailor

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 22:32:57

Sometimes you try to maximize performance tweaking all those controls and sometimes you just relax and have another beer...

Edited by - on

GaryB
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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 22:48:33

I'm with Merrick!

I sailed 4 - 4.5 knots all afternoon last Saturday with a 110 jib and no main. Why bother with the main! Just something else to disturb my relaxation!

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 07:30:08

Hey, no one says that you have to maximize your performance or sail shape all of the time. Just like it's not necessary to know how to tie proper knots;if you sufficiently tangle a line it will probably hold and you can always relase it with your rigging knife. Everyone gets lazy and sails with one sail every once and awhile too. But the fun of sailing (like the fun of any sport or pastime) is in mastering the basics and honing your skills. A vang is just one of those things that helps you do that, so is an out-haul and a cunnungham. After awhile you use them with out thinking, just like tying a bowline.

Edited by - Renzo on 10/15/2008 07:31:45

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 07:36:48

I often sail with jib alone and I rarely use a winch handle. I'm in to sailing for the peaceful aspect of it.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 09:47:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 I often sail with jib alone and I rarely use a winch handle. I'm in to sailing for the peaceful aspect of it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had not had a boat in 10 years, I was out sailing on my '82 for only the second or third time. I saw another Catalina 25 languishing in the distance and recognized it as a member of this forum. I sailed over to him and after literally sailing several circles around him as he ineptly crept along I hollered hello. He kinda nodded.. kinda. Enthused to be sailing again after my long hiatus and anxious to talk to another Catalina owner and very anxious about why he seemed to have no clue about what makes a sail boat work I simply suggested; "If you would loosen your outhaul, set your vang, move your genoa cars forward, finish raising the jib halyard and the main halyard, get the luffing just sheeted out of the genoa and do the same with your main your boat will actually move" He hollered back that he came to the lake to relax and get away from people like me.
I will never understand that whole "drifting for peace" thing, (drugs and headphones are way easier), but now that I have mellowed I will defend your right to do it to the end.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/15/2008 09:51:12

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 10:12:59

I still wanna see pictures of Frank hiking out on that Hobie. I love hobie's. I've got a Snipe but I doubt I'll ever get it back to working order for another 5 years or so.

Frank, did I ever tell you of the book I read about the couple that took off to the Caribbean with a hobie and a covered canoe and stayed years? I lost the book, but it was a hoot. Have not been able to find the book again.... years on the beach camping with aluminum lawn chairs, spearing fish for dinner. I think the guy was military so I think he had had enough structure for much of his life.

Talk about being able to lay back...

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 11:07:40

Snipes were VERY big here in Wichita for a long time. The first time I saw the transom of a Snipe I knew they had to be fast and fun, there is only one reason to have holes that big in a transom, to sail out a swamped boat after frequent capsizes!

TED WELLS [1907-1991]
Ted Wells started sailing Snipes in 1939 at Wichita, Kansas. Before that, he was an airplane pilot and raced planes around pylons, a popular spectator event and competition in the 1930s. He was Chief Engineer for Beech Aircraft Corporation and designer of the Beech Model 17 Staggerwing biplane, introduced in 1932 for business executive travel, a plane which had the top wing staggered behind the lower wing. Ted became a top competitor in the Snipe class, and was SCIRA Commodore in 1954 and for many years Chairman of the SCIRA Rules Committee. He owned at least six Snipes over the years, the most famous being many-time champion Varalyay Snipe #6025 "Good News" which was donated to the Mystic Seaport collection in Mystic, Connecticut. He won many Snipe championships including the Snipe US National Championship in 1947, 1949 and 1952, the Snipe International Championship in 1947 and 1949, the Snipe Western Hemisphere Championship in 1952, and the Snipe US Midwinter Championship in 1948, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1954, and 1957. He authored a regular column "Wells Wanderings" in the Snipe Bulletin, which offered many technical tips on boat upgrading and equipment, and racing tactics; and authored a famous book "Scientific Sailboat Racing" (Dodd, Mead & Co., New York, New York1950, revised 1958 and 1979). He was six-time Commodore of the Wichita Sailing Club. He sailed in his last Snipe regatta at the Snipe World Masters Championship in 1986, at age 79. "Many people on the coasts wonder how skippers sailing on lakes that are not even big enough for a good yacht anchorage can frequently do much better in big regattas that they should. The answer is simple - practice. With short courses and numerous laps, there is lots of practice rounding marks. And when you have to tack every few minutes or run out of lake, you get lots of practice coming about. The boats are bound to be closely grouped - they haven’t any place to go - so you get lots of practice on rules and competitive tactics. Also, the skippers are delighted to get a chance to race on somebody else’s mud puddle, so they frequently pack their boats on trailers and make round trips of 500 to 1000 miles over a weekend for a regatta."

Edited by - on

redeye
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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 11:27:38

I'm very excited about getting one ( auctually grlfrnd is owner ). I think it is the second of three designs they made in age and most of the parts look good, just some work on the deck where the mast goes through, but nothing major. But the admiral has me working on the house/houses right now and then there is that little bottom job for the lina. When I finally get to hike out I'll send you a picture!

No rest for the wicked...

Thanks for the snipe history.

Edited by - on

jerlim
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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 00:00:05

One of the regular topics here is guest comfort...in strong-gusty conditions, a properly tensioned vang helps provide a certain amount of stability, contributing to a steadier ride for those with us, be they the Admiral or friends.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 00:11:16

Uh yeah - guest comfort and hmmmm preservation of the rigging if you sail in unpredictable conditions. A boom brake and a vang are two different things - a vang is more of a performance thing with some control, but a boom brake requires multiple adjustments to tack or jibe depending on the model. I prefer the brake personally - but I'll bet Jim has a vang! Most vangs also provide lift.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Deltaville, snowbirding it again

Edited by - on

lcharlot
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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2008 : 23:36:02

On the C-22 and C-25 with the standard boom, if you don't have a vang, an unexpected jibe with the main sheet all the way loose can allow the aft end of the boom to lift and possibly hit the back stay. If this impact is hard enough, it could break the backstay. I always use a vang, mostly for the peace of mind of knowing that the boom can't then smack the back stay.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 10:19:45

Frank, I have to confess that until this boat experience I have never worried all that much about perfect trim. I have always been one to set a course and make the boat conform to that course and not worry about the extra 1/100th knot. I now sail with a couple of ex-racers, one very serious type and I have to say that I have learned more about sail trim than I ever knew. But the most fun is when it is my turn to steer (we do 30 minute shifts), I like to lean back against the stern pulpit or the backstay and steer with my foot. Drives the racer nuts.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 12:13:14

If you are having fun then you are doing it right and if you are driving friends bonkers then that has to be fun! Just remember, nearly every "racing" device and it's proper use is there to DEPOWER the sails and provide more control of the boat. Often it is the casual cruiser that needs these controls the most, (to reduce white knuckle events).

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 12:40:54

I have been espousing the merits of a rigid vang on this forum for several years now. It is particularly useful single handing when forced to shorten the main. With it I can engage my autopilot, slacken the main sheet - keeping the boat moving, drop the main, tighten up on the approriate reefing line - which is led aft to the cockpit, and raise the main. All without having to use a topping lift or have the boom bang around in the cockpit. The rigid vang supports the boom throught the whole process. In my opinion, it is a need-to-have piece of equipment for any single-hander interested in safety and ease of reefing.

Edited by - aeckhart on 10/20/2008 12:44:47

redeye
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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 06:55:23

AND I've been sailing without a topping lift for the last 30 years also. But again, I'm lake sailing, not on the open water. That is good to know that the vang can prevent damage to the backstay.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 08:37:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 AND I've been sailing without a topping lift for the last 30 years also. But again, I'm lake sailing, not on the open water. That is good to know that the vang can prevent damage to the backstay.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup, the "goosewing jibe" where the sudden snap of the sail pulls the boom up as it comes across. A vang doesn't need to be tight to prevent it--it just needs to be there.

It has been pointed out here (not by me) that a rigid vang doesn't perform all of the functions of a topping lift... Most notably, if somebody leans or falls against the boom, a topping lift will hold them and a rigid vang probably won't. Based on that information, my preference was for the topping lift. I also envisioned using the mainsheet tackle (with a snap-shackle) and boom as a crane to lift an injured MOB back aboard, which would require the topping lift. And if something did happen to the backstay, the topping lift and mainsheet could serve as an emergency backup to hold the mast up. (Ya, that's a long-shot.)

Then there's the little issue of a vang, especially a rigid one, with the pop-top...

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 08:50:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> And if something did happen to the backstay, the topping lift and mainsheet could serve as an emergency backup to hold the mast up. (Ya, that's a long-shot.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually Dave, Maybe not such a long shot. On our smallish freshwater lake this past season, one of our more experienced sailors lost his forestay while sailing in a blow.

His response was to immediate turn th eboat and sail downwind, then he used his topping lift to replace the forestay, and gingerly sailed his boat back to the harbour. Now his boat has roller furling, and I wasn't there when it happened. I was there to help replace the bits a week later when the new parts arrived.

Another member of our club lost his entire rig while single-handling across the lake last year. He managed to control th eboat enough to run it aground on a sand bar, and then recover the mast, sails, etc. But I wonder if he had of had the experience of the guy who used his topping lift for a forestay, he may have been able ot avoid a crisis.

Edited by - on

redeye
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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 12:59:21

If I wanted an adjustable topping lift, should I run one on one of the topmast blocks, running the halyards internally?

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 14:21:10

The topping lift typically is a fast connection to the aft side of the mast head, and adjusts one of several ways at the boom end.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 15:19:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 I'm very excited about getting one ( auctually grlfrnd is owner ). I think it is the second of three designs they made in age and most of the parts look good, just some work on the deck where the mast goes through, but nothing major. But the admiral has me working on the house/houses right now and then there is that little bottom job for the lina. When I finally get to hike out I'll send you a picture!

No rest for the wicked...

Thanks for the snipe history.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm....grlfrnd?...admiral?.... Sorry, but have to know is the Admiral the grlfrnd?... If not, I need your expertise.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 19:00:13

"If I wanted an adjustable topping lift, should I run one "

Mine is run just like an extra halyard, Cleat at base of mast to a block hung off the aft section of the masthead and down to the end of the boom.

Like it that way. Once you have it set you don't need to fool with it much if at all and it functions just like an extra halyard, so you have a backup in the event one of the others goes pear-shaped.

Edited by - on

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