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Nauti Josh
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/15/2008 : 19:46:08

I'm not yet an owner of a 250. I've been reading reviews online about the 250. But, all the reviews are based on the water ballast model. I was wondering if the winged keel model has good balance at the helm? Does the boat have any weather or lee helm issues?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 21:12:32

There is a truism of machines, fewer moving parts/simpler is better. If repeated towing were not an issue I would not consider a WB boat. Depth is not an issue, wings draw very little water, weight on the trailer is the issue. Are you a trailer sailor or a marina sailor, answer that and you have your answer.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 21:26:27

I agree with Frank on simpler is better, however we (trailer sailors) do recognize the depth as an issue.
Draft of C250 Wing Keel = 3.5'
Draft of C250 W,Ballast = 1'8" up and 5'9" down

In SOFLA, having just 20" of draft in the skinny waters around hour harbors and bays is a boon!

But you'll get responses from both advocates. We take our boat out 4-5 days at a time, so trailering the boat is our choice, but we can take our boat all around Florida. We have some WingKeeled buddies that drag their boat all over too.

Is it easier to drag a swing v a wing? We have gotten the launch/reteival process down, and proably we can do both with at least less effor than a Wing.

I think it's really a case of where you are going to float the boat. For us in SOFLA, the swing wings it

Paul

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 21:51:44

In answer to your question, the WK has as many helm issues as any other boat that is not tuned properly. If the WK is tuned properly there will be slight weather helm, but it also must be sailed properly to keep the boat in balance. By that I mean sailed at no more than 20 degrees of heel. If sailed above that number the weather helm will increase until you reach 32 degrees at which point you loose all rudder control and the boat turns up. Take it from been there done that, a C250 sailed to maintain 28 to 30 degrees is better than any "E" ride at Disney.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 22:01:09

Frank's right, again. I have a WK. I would not consider it a trailer-sailer. I have it wet slipped at a marina (until today, now on the hard for winter

)

I think the weather/lee helm issue to be one of sail trim more than of keel type. I haven't pushed my boat anywhere near 30 degrees (and probably never will) At 10-15 degrees, I have a little weather helm which is desirable. I had a problem with lee helm earlier this year until I made some rigging adjustments after changing to a larger (135%) headsail this year.

Edited by - John Russell on 10/15/2008 22:04:43

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 23:45:39

If you look at the drawings as I did when I was considering the C-250, you'll notice that the centerboard on the WB model, fully down, is centered considerably further forward than the wing keel. That suggests more weather helm unless the board is canted back maybe 20 degrees, and may have something to do with reviews you've read.

As John says, a little weather helm is desirable for safety, and even for speed, and most WK owners here seem to have found that balance. WB owners have had more complaints, but pulling the centerboard up (back) a little should fix that for them.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/15/2008 23:46:28

Nauti Josh
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2008 : 07:32:03

Thanks for all the advice. I'm looking at getting a winged keel model. I've been wanting to buy a small cruiser for a few years now. However, the cost of owning a boat say like the Hunter 290 requires a slip fee and a lot more maintenance being in the water all the time. The C-250 on the other hand will be just a little smaller allowing it to be stored on a trailer as well as dropped in whatever waters I want to sail. I've been reading about stability on the water ballasted boats and I have decided that I want a keel boat model.

I know that a boat stored on land and launched vs. a boat keep in the water. Isn't much of a price difference. However, I've got a big back yard to store the boat and I've got access to a hoist to launch the boat.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2008 : 23:52:31

Oh you Nauti sailor... You said the H----- word!

Quote" I have decided that I want a keel boat model." That sounds about right. Water ballast is cool and for some is great, but there are significant issues - safety and perfomance that are resolved by a real keel. Often tender, the WB has merits. You can beach it practically. But if you want perfomance, get the deepest thing you can haul.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Deltaville, snowbirding it again

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 13:59:01

...and in the C-250, you get a bunch more headroom with the wing.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 15:10:53

Yeah the headroom is a big issue on my WB. You mentioned you wanted a little "cruiser" where I understand you will actually want to cruise. If so headroom is VERY important. Even the WK guys would want to completlely stand up. If trailerability is not super high on your priorities list then you might consider a C270, but I'm not sure if you can stand up in that one?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 16:52:41

I think you should take a strong look at the trailerability part of your equation. Yes, the 250 WK can be moved on a trailer (assuming adequate tow vehicle). But it really isn't a trailer-sailer in the sense that you can pop over to the lake for an afternoon sail and then home again. Rigging for launch can take a long time. Same thing on the return trip. Launching often requires significant trailer extension devices. (Randy uses a 50' strap if I'm not mistaken.) Access to a hoist is great but, at my marina that means a boat unit ($100) for each lift and I don't think they're available 24/7. In fact I've never seen a boat lanched/pulled on a Sunday. Anyway, I prefer the C250 Wing Keel over the Water Ballast but that's just personal preference. My trailer is really just a cradle with wheels.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 19:24:59

On Tuesday I was lucky enough to catch a ride on a nice C-250 WK, and we cruised out under 5-10 knot winds with 1 foot waves into the Pacific off of LA, and the boat handled just great.

I have no more headroom on my C-25 under sail than the C-250, and I have to stoop in the cabin, but with my big pop-top up, my guests and I have about 6'8" or so of headroom in the main cabin.

By the way, in my C-25 with a fin keel I sail sometimes in strong winds heeled over to 30, 35, 40 degrees or so and it feels very solid. I find that normal, standing on the opposite gunwale.

The C-250's have new stuff that is really impressive, like portlights that don't leak, electrical and plumbing systems that don't need repairs, and standing and running rigging that is new and shiny, too.

It's a good problem to have - - - how to pick a nice sailboat! You know, the Florida sailors on this Forum will give you the best advice for your area.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

Nauti Josh
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 20:11:47

Are the water ballasted and keel models rigged the same way? Are the trailers for both set up to aid in stepping the mast? I know the winged and full keel models are not intended for day sailing in the since of launching and recovering in the same day. My intentions for the 250 winged model is to drop it in Tampa Bay once a month and spend a few nights on it. I'd also like to try sailing to the Bahamas, Jamaica, and Porto Rico for a vacation once a year. Has anyone here ever sailed a 25 or a 250 offshore on a few days voyage?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 20:30:52

To answer your first two questions, yes & yes. As to your 3rd, I'll defer to others but, I think that traveling to Bermuda AND Jamaica AND Puerto Rico on a C250 is a bit too ambitious. Others will chime in about such things as a deck stepped mast, relatively light rigging, unprotected transom hung rudder, etc., don't really make for going offshore.

I'd compare my boat to an offshore boat as akin to a pop-top camper compared to a Class-A motorhome.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 20:40:21

Some goals are best achieved with a charter boat.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 21:36:10

First off, I like your name.

We use 70' of strap to trailer launch our 350 Wing. I would not want to launch and retrieve often with this boat. We do tow it 350 miles each way for our annual cruise in the San Juans so it is fine to tow but the setup and launch would be a hassle if done often. Towing is best done with a 3/4 ton pickup. We weighed in at a truck scale and the 250W on trailer weighed 6800lbs.

We cruise for two weeks on our boat and it is a terrific little cruiser.

As far as weather helm goes we have wheel steering - with the open wire conversion kit - and I can steer with two fingers on the wheel up to about 30 degrees heel. The boat is fastest at 20 degrees or less but heeling further is fun.

Good rig tuning is essential but not difficult.

Edited by - on

Kendall
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2008 : 21:04:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck

our 350 Wing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

WHAT? You got a new boat? And you trailer it? With a GMC Yucon?

Sorry, back to the topic.

Edited by - Kendall on 10/19/2008 21:30:47

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2008 : 21:26:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kendall
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck

our 350 Wing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

WHAT? You got a new boat? And you trailer it? With a GMC Yucon?

Sorry, bock to the topic.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yea, it is a prototype that Frank Butler wanted me to try out. It's a 35' trailerable. They call it the "C&C killer."

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 08:55:27

Quote: "Yea, it is a prototype that Frank Butler wanted me to try out. It's a 35' trailerable. They call it the "C&C killer." 

Aww c'mon! Frank already makes a bunch of those!

Now I am gonna have to Joshua Slocum myself modern day. Instead of tacks on my deck to protect me from the natives, I'll have computer guided rpg's seeking various logo's and evaluating ground tackle before firing at will!

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 09:38:48

Quote: "I'd also like to try sailing to the Bahamas, Jamaica, and Porto Rico for a vacation once a year. Has anyone here ever sailed a 25 or a 250 offshore on a few days voyage?" 

It can be done - hey a Hunter 25.5 with a hot babe aboard did it a few years ago... The link died or for some reason I can't find it again. Anyhow, this guy had a watermaker, windgen, generator, AC, you name it on Hunter! Sailed out of St. Augustine and went to the islands! Granted, his rudder parted ways a bit and there were a couple of groundings, but he made it.

Jim B. does it all of the time. My wife and I have tested the limits of our C25 and are never going to try that again.

sten

I have met stinkpotters on trawlers who will only cross the gulf stream when the seas are 2 foot or less! If I were you, I'd go when they go. Extra long shaft engine, extra fuel and water bladders, beef up the rigging and the rudder, get an EPIRB and a liferaft, two autopilots, big ones, lash the entire boat, lee cloth for a pilot berth, and then go out and play when it is blowing 25 knots. If you do all of that, I'll buddy boat!

As already noted, wrong boat. Patrick Childress rounded the planet on a C27 but is the first to advise against it. He is on a Valiant 40 today! But with a little planning and a better rig, you could at least make the Abacos and then see what happens from there.

Oh, and ummm... you'll need a lot of chain! Coral cuts thru yarn! But I digress.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - underway to Norfolk, snowbirding it again

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 10:00:35

With all that chain, maybe the C-250 won't need lead ingots or bags of gravel in the forepeak.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 11:37:02

Dave, you're brilliant! You have just singlehandidly solved both problems at once!

WOW!

Sten - underway to Norfolk - I love wireless broadband and autopilots!

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 12:54:03

As much as I would like to see you get a C-250, take a look at the Hake 26 (Google Hake Yachts). It has an electric lifting keel with bulb. Even their 30 footer will sit in 22" of water with the keel raised and is trailerable. They're built in Florida. If I were to buy a new boat I'd be getting the 30.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 14:57:22

The Hake's (Seaward 26RK and 32RK) are terrific boats but they are also expensive.

Here is a used 2006 32RK loaded and with trailer for $135k

[url="http://www.seawardyachts.com/brokerage.html"]Seward 32RK[/url]

Edited by - Nautiduck on 10/20/2008 15:04:20

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 20:46:48

I came across a Seward when I was looking at what was to become my Cat, and the price was very reasonable. Unfortunately, even I would have insisted on a very big truck to tow it, adding considerably to the price and giving me a very rarely used vehicle.

Edited by - on

smoken
1st Mate

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USA
67 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2008 : 07:51:27

Hey Nauti Josh, welcome. You have come to the right place for, answers to your questions. Any time you can tap the knowledge of this form your way ahead of the game. Myself, I have had two w/b swing keels, ( both Hunters ) a 240 and a 260 they were good lake boats and they seemed to work well when we took the to the coast. The swing keels also acted as a second depth sounder. The intracoastal can be brutal. I also took the 260 off shore for about 5 hrs. The weather was good and the seas were mild. As far as launching and set up, both were about a hour to a hour and a half to be ready, going in or coming out. All that being said, I am now the proud owner of Fellow Ship, a 1989 w/k Catalina. Before we ever put it in the water we had the chance to sail with our Commodore, JimB for around 9 hours in the Pacific, it was windy and there were good size waves. After that trip we knew the fixed keel was the better way to go. Frank H the PO of our boat set up Fellow Ship very well. We finally put ours in the water about a month ago. The last month of sailing has has cemented our thoughts abut a fixed keel. The boat feel so much more solid than either of the w/b boats in our past. We now feel like we have a real boat. This isn't a slam on w/b boats, but there is a difference. How you use your boat and how often you launch and receive your boat should weigh heavy in your decision.
Sorry, probably more jabber than you should have to endure!!! Enjoy which ever you choose!

Edited by - on

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