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farthest over?

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/17/2008 : 16:17:31

What is the farthest over anyone has ever been in the C25 (and what keel)?

I've been to 45 degrees many times, at which point the fin keel SR rounds up. You hear the roar of water coming off the rudder, then she rounds up to the wind. I don't think you could get much past 45 degrees by wind alone, throw in waves thats another story.

Anyone ever had the spreaders in the water and recovered without capsize?

According to capsize ratios we should be able to recover from full knockdowns with the mast in the water as long as cockpit lockers are closed and companionway boards are locked in.

Anyone ever done a full capsize in a 25 or 250?

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 16:55:59

Jim - we came close to a capsize on Lake Cheney - we were standing on the side of the cockpit lockers and the spreader had to be close to the water (we completely submerged the O/B which kept running!)Now I manage to control the roundups and can't remember having one for a few years (despite our roaring winds this year).
I have been on a C22 which capsized and sunk...but that's another story.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 17:34:57

Does flipping Dolphins & Sunfish count?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 18:56:15

I've had the rudder come out of the water, and the leeward locker cover fly open, and, when my hand was resting on top of the winch, I've gotten my watch wet from water flowing over the cockpit coaming. The boat could certainly get knocked down (put the spreader in the water) by wind alone, if it was flying a spinnaker. With white sails, I believe it would take a sudden 50 or so knot gust to knock it down.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 19:17:44

National Champion Sailing

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 19:39:11

Frank, I've had the boat to that point many times. Notice the side deck is not even under, there is no weather helm, sails are flat but not reefed.

Actually getting the side decks under is quite hard to do. Anyone done that? Ever get to the point that the windows are under?

Anyone ever put the bow under? I've only managed to do that one or two times in really steep and ultra short period waves.

Anyone ever get pooped and fill the cockpit?

I am interested if the fin keeled, swing keeled, and wing keel have positive stability at or past 90 degrees. By formula the fin keel at least should come back up even with the mast under (120 degrees) but you gotta figure the boat would flood at that point (who has lockers latched and boards locked in?)

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 20:08:25

anyone ever break a shroud or stay in extreme conditions?

anyone ever break the gooseneck? (Something I worry about all the time whwn gybing in big air - I think the sliding gooseneck is flimsy)

break the boom?

lose the rudder?

My point is, we have some people on this forum who sail the boat hard. I am one of them. Frank, Derek, Steve probably see bigger air than I do (for sure on average).

Nothing big has ever broken on my boat, nor have I ever been past 50 degrees for more than a second. I've twice put the bow under green water in 6000 miles of ocean sailing. I've never had a spinnaker "death roll" but did have a forestay wrap.

Worst break I ever had was breaking the main halyard during a race 15 miles offshore while shaking out a reef. We hoisted the main on the spin halyard and continued with a sloppy reef set and took 5th.

Now some of the boats racing today break early, break fast, and break hard.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 20:37:46

With white sails only, I put Passage's side-deck under a few times (when I should've been reefed), but I don't think I ever really washed the windows (except with spray). I also buried the bow in a wave that came all the way over the coachroof and into the cockpit--two of us got soaked! It was a wake from a tug that was apparently pushing past its hull-speed, a quarter mile away. Passage literally went airborne off the first wave, and dove into the second with a huge BANG. While I've preached that the C-25 isn't a blue-water boat, she's shown me she can take more than I'd prefer to.

BTW, what Jim is talking about is one reason you want some weather helm. If the rudder loses its bite due to the boat being overpowered, you want the boat to turn itself up, not down!

A couple of years ago, a C-25 sank in Lake Dillon in Colorado... apparently due to being overload (the boat and the skipper). That's the only to go down I've heard about.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/17/2008 20:43:51

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 21:09:56

broke a shroud on my laser! We were in Miami, my son held the sail up so we could limp back to the beach. As we approached we asked "Is this Florida?"

Paul

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 21:16:37

Not on purpose, nor do I want to do it again. But I had the rail of my 250 buried "bare poled". I got hit with what I believe to be a micro burst during BEER Cruise 2007. I had just lowered the sails and was under full power. We were getting plummeted with hail when I saw the wind coming, luckily I had the hatch already shut because I would not have had time to shut it. The strength of the wind stopped me, turned me sideways and rolled me over onto my side and then pushed me sideways burying the rail and more. My wife was in the cockpit hanging on the main sheet her knees on the side of the cockpit locker. Finally after what seemed like hours but was only about a minute or less the wind slackened and I was able to get the rudder in the water to turn the boat stern to the wind and she straightened up.

I'm surprise that my wife and son continues to want to sail. She now knows how far we can go over and come back.

Here's s snippet of an article someone wrote that mentions it.

 "The 26 miles to Navarre were suddenly disappearing rapidly as our speed increased along with the sea breeze. A towering thunderstorm to the east was also increasing the westerly component of the wind. Whisper's speed increased steadily until we were making over 7 knots. To add a bit of excitement a fleet of beach cats were racing in the sound, as if to put us in our place. They zipped by with crews on their trapezes at what looked like 20 knots! The storm up ahead started to light up the black sky with long horizontal strands of lightning. The timing of the thunder coming closer to the strikes. Bill was right behind me in MoonShadow, and we were both wondering if we were going to make it to the anchorage before the storm hit. It was definitely coming our way! Stopping to reef or even put on a rain jacket was out of the question so we just surged into the anchorage at 8 knots, and zipped around a corner into the shallows just as the first rain drops started to fall. We got our Bruce anchors set and zipped up our convertible cabins.

Further west the scene was chaotic . Tom Potter's Catalina 250, "Knotty Cat" was reported to have been knocked mast down in the water by a micro-burst during the storm, but most just anchored in place and limped into the anchorage under power after the storm passed us by to the south. When the WCTSS group finally straggled in and anchored nearby we all took off down the beach to Sailor's restaurant for a few hearty beers and something warm to eat. The county rock music that night emanating from Juana's beach bar wasn't that bad, but we mostly enjoyed it from a half mile away in our shallow cove."

Edited by - Tom Potter on 11/17/2008 21:28:10

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 22:01:25

I recovered nicely from a 70º - 80º near knock down from odd direction gust combined with a 4 ft. swell abeam. The rudder was well clear of the water, I was standing on the side of the cockpit locker, Chris was on the cabin top with her feet in the water over the side deck (she also yelled "I'm not doing this when I'm 65!". Feather took care of us.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 22:34:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Actually getting the side decks under is quite hard to do. Anyone done that? Ever get to the point that the windows are under?

Anyone ever put the bow under? I've only managed to do that one or two times in really steep and ultra short period waves.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you'll look at Frank's photo, you can see that the side deck and windows would both have been awash when my winch was under water, and when water was washing over the cockpit coaming. I've done that on 2-3 occasions.

I never buried the bow of my C25, but I put about the first 3 feet of the bow of my C22 under water, after running down the face of a huge breaker.

I've never had any spar or rigging fail on my boat.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 22:59:28

We raced on Folsom Lake in the Camellia Regatta and took 2 knock downs while flying the spinnaker. There were 5 in the crew so lots of weight and I was on the helm and the rudder was out of the water each time. I told everyone to get ready as we were starting to right and we continued the race which we did win. I was able to watch the boats behind us as I had nothing to do with the rudder in the air and they were taking near knock downs from the gusts which allowed us to keep our lead. I didn't get wet as I was laying on my back on the lower side so I believe the weight of the crew kept the cockpit dry. Jim McClure on the foredeck did go in the water but hooked his arm on the life line which flipped him back up on deck when the boat righted, he bent the stanchion. Later after the race we tried to find out how close the mast was to the water during the knockdowns and I believe the mast didn't touch the water but it was very close. We took 3rd and had the oldest crew on the lake.

We have hour glassed the spinnaker during races. On a 23 Aquarius with a big crew did break a turnbuckle on a shroud and it shot up toward the mast and then returned to the deck without hitting anyone.

The boat will be 30 next season and I haven't broken any major part yet but since I am over 65 we don't race like that anymore. Yes screws have been pulled out but replaced with a larger size. I do check the boat over each season and it is really a great boat. The racing gave me the experience of the 25 and the confidence in the design and construction. Yes it is a swing keel and a tall rig which is such a pleasure to use and sail.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 23:35:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 broke a shroud on my laser!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Since when does a Laser have shrouds?

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 05:58:54

1983 Laser II, aluminum two part mast with Jib & Main (we didn't own a spin)

Paul.

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Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 07:00:53

I've had the starboard aft lower chainplate break at deck level while rounded 12 mile banks off Cayman. It wasn't much fun as we had to shorten sail and tack as gently as we could all the way back in fairly big seas. When we hauled the boat we discovered all the chainplates which hold the lowers were heavily corroded (not where you could see) so we replaced those (and the rest of the chainplates).

Cheers JC

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 07:30:41

I snapped a shroud on a Catalina 22 in the ICW. Didn't hit anyone, came about and sailed it the relatively short distance back to the dock. Pretty uneventful.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3448 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 08:45:20

It is a curious thing at just what force needed to break a shroud. One would think that pushing the boat to the limit, heeled all the way out, is perhaps the scenario when a shroud would break. While it is true it may have more stress at that point with heavy winds blowing, etc, the fact is that the shrouds if in good condition would probably never fail from just wind conditions alone. If the wind and/or shock resulted in a sudden impact/stress then that may snap a shroud if the shroud was already compromised from corrosion or fraying of the wires. That then could happen at any heel angle.

Remember back a couple of years ago, when Dave (who owned a Catalina 25 at the Wash Sailing Marina south of Natl Reagan Airport, VA) and the yard had finished maintenance of his boat and was just in the process of raising the boat with the travel arm when the boat slipped - The forward shroud tensed suddenly when it came in contact with the travel arm support. The tension still did not break the shroud ! The shroud ripped up about 1 foot of the bow decking ! The marina wound up paying him for his boat as it was deemed a total loss w/significant cost to fix the bow at such a critical point. Dave now is in my marina on the DC side of the Potomac (a few slips down from me) with one of those C-Dory mini-pilothouse looking boats.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 09:37:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Since when does a Laser have shrouds?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 1983 Laser II...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ah, yes--different boat.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/18/2008 09:38:22

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 10:36:16

I can't help but wonder how much of a rigging failure is due to the rig tension and maintenance and how much is due to design. I believe our boats have a pretty fool-proof design, but I believe that an oer-tensioned rig would be more prone to failure than a loose one.

Last summer we had our boat heavily tensioned at the start of the season, then about halfway through we eased the tension on th erig following some good advice here. It was amazing to see the difference in performance, and how much more nicely the boat performed.

Our failures so far have been limited to snap shackles failing at critical moments, hourglassed sails and a poorly placed anchor holder snagging the genoa (an expensive, but harmless failure).

What I find amazing is what some folks consider an emergency. Our second snap shackle let go when I was single-handling th eboat on a medium distance race last summer. Since I don't have a dependable autotiller, or a tiller lock, I lashed the tiller amidships, ran forward and dropped the genoa, tied on the spare sheets and re-hoisted the genoa. I finished the race in 4th (4th seems to be my number). A fellow member of my club lost the snap shackle on his foresail in the same race and abandoned because he "didn't want to put his crew at risk." My response to that is "What the hay! We're on a lake, in a pleasant breeze - and YOU HAVE CREW!"

Maybe I'm nuts.

Edited by - on

ed_spengeman
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 12:12:29

This fall we took a 40 mile trip across lower Lake Michigan. North wind, 10-15, 300 mile fetch = stupidity. Tried to sail but seas too confused so motored with a 25-year old 2-stroke Mariner. It work perfectly but... ran into up to 10ft seas coming from different directions. Pegged the inclinometer at 45 degress a number of times. gunk-holed the next day in 2-3 ft seas. Started back the next day with about 50 miles in store. Eight miles out we reefed the main with expectations of heavier wind. Had 3 foot seas. SNAP. The HDPE rudder I had replace last year for the trip, broke off at the lower pintle bolts so that half of the bolts were exposed. We change our plans. The next day we motor sailed in about 10-15 and had fun closehauled and steering with the motor.

Rudder company was very nice and fast. Said it was the first C-25 they knew of that broke and wanted to inspect the remining piece. They replaced it at no cost. We must have over-cooked it that first nite.

I am still completely impressed with this boat and am comfortable in just about any situation.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 13:18:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I can't help but wonder how much of a rigging failure is due to the rig tension and maintenance and how much is due to design. I believe our boats have a pretty fool-proof design, but I believe that an oer-tensioned rig would be more prone to failure than a loose one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Some also say that if you're on a mooring where the boat will pitch and roll much of the time, you want to minimize the shock-loads on the chainplates, swages, and other fittings by keeping the rig fairly tight.

Many failures are due to corrosion where chainplates pass through the deck. I inspected and then re-sealed my upper shroud chainplates shortly after buying Passage.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ed_spengeman
 SNAP. The HDPE rudder I had replace last year for the trip, broke off at the lower pintle bolts...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Precisely why I don't like those things. King Starboard (HDPE) has warnings not to use it where bending forces are high, and on a heeled, pitching and rolling sailboat, they are.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 13:19:01

I once had ski boat buzz my C25 at it's mooring. The wake caused it to roll over on it's side putting the starboard spreader in the water. Probably not the same physical effects your looking for but......she rolled right back up.

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 13:24:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 I once had ski boat buzz my C25 at it's mooring. The wake caused it to roll over on it's side putting the starboard spreader in the water. Probably not the same physical effects your looking for but......she rolled right back up.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
... time for the "when to carry a gun" thread? ... never mind.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3448 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 18:21:25

... time for the "when to carry a gun" thread? ... never mind.

If it wasn't too big or expensive, I may be interested in getting an inflatable cannon to keep in the cabin and pull it out at just the right time !

Several times this past summer, I seem to have been in just the right place for one of those small sightseeing boats to be passing by near to me....not a problem as far as them creating a wake...but apparently, the "Captain" or "Tour Guide" likes to pass close by and gets all the passengers to yell out "Ahoy...we be the Potomac Pirates !" It's kind of fun but starting to bug me a bit...especially if I am drifting along at 1 kt. I wouldn't mind pulling out a cannon on them and yelling something back.

Okay...it has nothing to do with heeling over at 45 degrees, shrouds snapping, or emergencies deemed non-emergencies by the real sailor types.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/18/2008 18:22:16

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2008 : 15:47:50

Heeled over at about 45 degrees on Sunday in 15-20 knots in Eastern Bay off the Chesapeake, and the rudder cracked off at the lower pintle.

I was sailing with 2 friends on day 3 of a 4 day trip, and with about 25 miles to go to get home, we were pulling into the lee of a wooded headland at Tilghman Point to reef and switch to the storm jib when the boat rounded up out of control. Half the rudder was gone. We dropped sail and limped back to St. Michaels, MD.

This was a 30-year old standard rudder that had been cracked and waterlogged when I got the boat 3 years ago, then dried out for many weeks indoors, then repaired by grinding out the center third around the bottom pintle, strengthened with 10 layers of fiberglass/epoxy on port and starboard, sealed with epoxy all around, and painted. But now I know it was not strong enough, even with that solid repair, to handle heavy conditions. I had used it in pretty heavy weather for the last 20 months since the repair, like 10-15 knots and 3 foot seas.

My new rudder is on the way.

From Sunday on, all this week the winds have been roaring at over 15 knots. Yesterday 20-25 with gusts to 35 in the central Chesapeake!

My friends and I had a great time nevertheless, visiting the Maritime Museum and eating well in St. Michaels, MD. We just missed the experience of a fast ride back home on a sunny cold day with strong winds on the beam. Instead we came back by car.

Next week I expect the winds will be back to normal, and I will bring the boat back up the Bay to my home marina.

So that's what has broken on my boat! No one was injured, only disappointed.

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