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Fighting dead batteries in the off-season

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/25/2008 : 08:49:02

I think I may have a parasitic drain on my batteries.

Having to recharge too often, and not being able to maintain them with a solar panel, when the guy in th eslip next to me basically lived on his boat all summer and never had to recharge his batteries has convinced me that SOMETHING is wrong.

So trying to remember how I dealt with parasitic drains on my old K-car got me googling, and I found wikipedia's primer: [url="http://www.wikihow.com/Find-a-Parasitic-Battery-Drain"]Finding a parasitic drain[/url] Then I got to thinking about th ethings that make a boat different from a car.

In a car you ground to the frame, in the boat its the keel. The car is essentially intact year-round, on the boat, the outboard and mast are off with the attendant electronics missing (mast wiring harness, lights, etc., alternator, electric start in OB).

I think that I can test the boat for drains while its on the cradle but I do have these challenges, adn maybe someone with more electrical know-how than me can give some tips so I know if I'm wasting my time.

#1 - when its in the water, the keel grounds the boat to th elake. In the cradle, I have a hunk of wood under the keel, then steel, then concrete blocks, then ground. Should I be running a hunk of copper from a keel bolt to ground so the boat is truly grounded before checking for the parasitic drain?

#2 - I can run a jumper wire between the mast wiring and the deck connection to see if there is anything draining the battery via the mast, but does it make a difference that th emast is lying across the boat instead of standing upright? If a wire has rubbed through its casing and is energizing th emast in the upright position, but not making contact in the horizontal - I guess I'm just wasting my time. How likely of a scenario is this?

#3 - How likely is it that the OB would drain the battery? The engine is in the house awaiting some lower end work, and I would really rather not drag it out through th esnow to see if there is a drain through it. Is it possible to take a battery to the engine to check this?

#4 - When the OB is running and the battery switch is in the off position, the house lights will light up if turned on, and all the electronics will start working. Now the house lights are dim, but still, the battery is in the off position - this tells me that something is bypassing the battery. Should it be? How would I go about tracing that? Should I even care?

#5 - would this whole exercise be better done in the water, but before the mast is raised (I don't want to find out that the mast-head light is draining the batteries and have to bring the rig down again unless I have to.)

Thanks in advance for all your help!

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 09:01:00

Install a marine battery disconnect switch (ON OFF BOTH)to isolate the battery from downstream drains.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 09:23:03

Good idea clambeach - one was already installed by a PO (I am owner #3) I believe that some subsequent work is bypassing the switch (as noted in item #4) and fear that it is draining through th eOB, or that the bypass is jumping th edrain to the rest of the system.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 09:42:11

You probably already know this but for those who may not, the memory function on your AM/FM/CD player, which retains your time and channel settings on your radio, is usually wired so it remains constant even when the battery disconnect switch is turned to off. It is only a few milliamps but over time is enough of a load to drain your battery.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 10:25:11

Another good idea Joe, I want to install a radio this winter, but right now we don't have one to drain the batteries with. Keep the ideas coming guys!!

Has anyone done this stuff on the cradle? should I be worried about grounding the Keel before starting?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 11:40:28

The 84 fin is fully encased in glass, there is no ground. I do not believe there is a need for a "chassis" ground in a boat, the circuit are all two wire and return to the battery.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 12:09:49

Your car's chassis isn't "true ground"--it's just connected to the negative terminal on the car's battery. I suppose you could do the same thing to your rig if you want to check for leakage there.

Sounds like everything is bypassing the switch, and maybe the switch is wired only to combine the batteries in parallel or disconnect them from each other. You should look into rewiring that switch so it controls which battery or batteries are being charged and used, and you can turn everything completely OFF when the boat is not in use.

If your batteries are wired together (parallel) or your 1-All-2-Off switch is on All, a distorted plate in one battery will drain both. Letting a battery discharge too far or too fast is one of the most common causes of faults. If you leave a lead-acid battery all winter with no periodic or trickle charge, that can also cause a fault. If you find that either battery needs fluid--ever--that battery is probably defective and causing your problem. A distorted plate is causing an arc that's "boiling off" the fluid (creating hydrogen gas!) A faulty voltage regulator on the engine can also cause the problem by pumping too many volts. A healthy lead-acid battery's fluid stays up for years without any topping-off.

If you find one battery needs replacing, and it's wired to another battery, you should replace them both with identical batteries. Don't have a "deep cycle" wired in parallel to a "starting" battery. Besides, a C-25 with a little outboard has no need for a starting battery.

Where's our resident Marine EE, Bruce Ross??

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/25/2008 12:26:39

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 13:09:59

I remove the boat connections to the battery and add a solar charger.

Edited by - on

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 13:37:05

West Marine has several articles that may help you to understand how a boat is wired. They are in [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorListView?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001/"]The West Advisor. [/url] Hope this helps.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 15:02:48

Under no circumstances wire anything to the keel! There is no ground on a boat, only the bonding system - which Catalina 25s don't have. The bonding system is for corrosion protection where all under water metal are wired to zincs.

All boat wiring "floats" with no chassis ground.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 15:14:25

Wow - I guess I had that grounding thing all wrong! Glad to have you guys around to straighten me out.

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 15:37:04

Before I would start tearing the wiring apart. I would get them into the garage. Put them on a charger then let them sit for a week or so then put them back on the charger or take them to a local auto place to be tested.

Also, battries don't like being left in the cold over the winter.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 16:09:04

Pondering this some more.

1) Are you sure the solar panel is putting out?
2) A bad cell in one of the batteries will hose the pair.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3473 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 17:01:44

Lot's of good ideas by others. You could bring the battery into a local auto store and have it checked out on their testers. That is one idea to rule out a battery deficiency. I remember many years ago when I had to replace an auto battery and the new battery acted up on me soon after it was installed. It turned out to be a bad cell.

Drains sometimes come from obvious sources and one of them is the radio but it sound slike you already ruled that one out. Another possibility is to closely inspect the wiring to your switch panel. Sometimes there are some strange things lurking back there. For instance, when I bought my boat it seemed quite a convenience that when I wanted to put on the VHF radio, I did not even have to position the switch panel switch to "on", the radio would go on anyway after I turned on the VHF from it's own switch. An inspection of the wiring to the switch panel indicated one switch that had 3 positive leads connected to it. The way they were connected was by a sleeve terminal that branched out from the one positive terminal on that switch. What that effectively allowed was for 3 positive wires to be connected but the sleeve forked out enough that when the positive wires were attached to it, one of the wires was over far enough that it made contact with the positive bar that connects to all the switches on one side in the switch panel ! If you have something like that involving a light and the navigation lights, for example, have no independent switch other than the switch on the switch panel, then there could be a drain. I would checkk to make sure the switch panel wiring is intact with all wires not close to touching any other terminals near it.

Does your solar panel have a controller or diodes to prevent any residual electrical drain back out the panel. I have read that there can be a slight residual drain back thru=ough the panel when the panel is not charging. It is probably minute but one function that diodes and/or controller do is to prevent that drain. This is probably not your issue if you realize the drain over a few days/week but could be a factor over a longer period especially if the sun has not been out for many, many days. Disconnecting the solar panel and seeing if it has any effect would easily rule that possibility out.

How old is the battery (3, 4+ years old) ? If it is somewhat old and it is one that you add water to it ("Flooded" battery) and had perhaps a few recent occasions when water was extremely low before you then topped it off big time, then maybe it is just weak and not holding it's charge any longer.

Do you have any 12 volt adapter plugs for accessories ? Ensure that wiring is intact and not somehow making a completed circuit within it or in back of it (otherside of the fiberglas wall).

Just some things I could think of.

Just adding this note: I reread your posting and your #4 seems to me something that needs some checking out. You indicate that with the battery switch off...your lights are on ??? That is strange. I would check out the wiring to the switches in your switch panel (which I suggested above) and also to your battery switch. Maybe a nut on one of your battery switch terminals is loose allowing wires to touch that should not be touching. Even so, from what I remember, if the nut(s) were loose, I would think it hard for the wires on different terminals to touch each other. Believe they are spaced apart from each other and there is a small divider between the terminals. At least that is what I seem to recall. But your lights should only go on when the battery switch is "on" and then the switch panel switch for the lights is "on". If the lights can go on with either switch in the "Off" position, then something seems worng to me.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/25/2008 17:20:03

John Russell
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Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 17:47:18

I'm just curious why you don't just pull the battery out and put it on a trckle charger in your warm basement/garage, etc?

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/25/2008 : 22:31:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 
#4 - When the OB is running and the battery switch is in the off position, the house lights will light up if turned on, and all the electronics will start working. Now the house lights are dim, but still, the battery is in the off position - this tells me that something is bypassing the battery. Should it be? How would I go about tracing that? Should I even care?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If the house lights come on without the switch being on when the OB is running and the lights are dim it sounds to me like the OB is not properly wired into the wiring on the boat and the lights are being run off of the alternator. Could it be the OB is also not charging the batteries?

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2008 : 01:36:33

Why not draw a WIRING DIAGRAM, that's the ONLY way you'll find out how the boat is wired, what should be on or off, and what is really happening?

All the rest is conjecture on our part, except the fact that the keel doesn't act as a ground:the +&- of the batteries do, as you now know.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 11/29/2008 01:20:35

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2008 : 09:40:06

This is true Stu - but isn't conjecture and speculation fun! Besides, this sure beats going out in the cold, crawling around in frozen fibreglass and actually DOING something about it! Yes, I am a consultant.

I will try to get a diagram together this weekend.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 11/26/2008 : 10:06:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When the OB is running and the battery switch is in the off position, the house lights will light up if turned on, and all the electronics will start working. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Does this only occur when the motor is running? If so I would look first at how the cables from the motor are routed to see if there may be an alternate path. Maybe you have a meter in place to monitor the motor that is allowing current flow into the electrical system? I agree, a circuit diagram of your boat will help diagnose the problem.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 11/26/2008 : 10:14:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I'm just curious why you don't just pull the battery out and put it on a trckle charger in your warm basement/garage, etc?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I did that last winter. Then I found out that most of the guys in our club leave the batts on board with a solar panel and they are fine.

Our boat has a Xantrex Truecharge 10 on board, so I just plugged the boat into the house, and let the charger replace the solar panel. It should do a better job of keeping the batteries topped up anyway.

Our winters do get cold. Generally we have a week or two of extreme cold, with the rest of the winter being pretty dang cold, and have a rainy cold season in the spring and fall.

Last spring I replaced one of the batteries, this year I may just replace both, but with cash being what it is lately, I'd rather not have to go to those lengths. I would much rather trace the problems now, charge the batteries, and then test them in the driveway for a week or two before launch. I will need to go at least 5 days without plugging in during our North Channel cruise next summer (If I make it up there).

If I get home at a decent hour tonight, I'll start tracing circuits and whatnot, beginning with the batteries and see where I end up. I really fear trying to trace any of the wiring on the engine, but at least it is in the house where its warm.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/26/2008 : 16:08:23

I have always left my batteries in and the charger plugged in over the winters, Kansas gets plenty cold.

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DoubleD
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/27/2008 : 09:09:21

I think you need to start step by step.

First, check your batteries, to make sure they are good. A bad battery will drain the other.

Second, you said you had a selector switch on the batteries. Check the wiring going to the batteries, the selector switch, the outboard, and the fused switches on the bulkhead. PO's tend to wire things directly to the batteries, bypassing the selector switch. The selector switch is suppose to cut off all power to the accessories. You are defeating the purpose of the switch, wiring directly to the batteries.

Third, it sounds like your outboard is wired correctly to the selector switch. I would not run the outboard with the selector switch in the off position.

The only ground for your electronics is the negative terminals of your batteries.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 11/27/2008 : 11:38:53

Thanks guys.

Here are the batteries:

Last night I put the multimeter on the batteries and tried various combinations of knobs and switches.

What I found was that by jumping the negative battery terminal with the selector switch set to off, breaker panel off, and all fuses removed, there is a current flow of about 550 somethings. I don't know what the units are.

If I left the panel turned off and moved the selector switch to the "Both" position, the draw increased to around 1400

I didn't have time to start tracing circuits per the suggestion here, but I think that this at least shows that I'm not entirely crazy, and that there is a ghost load of some kind drawing down the batteries.

I tried unplugging the VHF, but it made no difference. My next item of suspicion is that there is a spare wire coming off the positive battery lead on one of the batteries. Tonight I think I will try removing it and see what kind of a difference it makes.

Someone on the TSA board also suggested looking at the switch itself since the load changes between the single battery and both that makes 2 votes for looking at the switch. I'm not sure how to troubleshoot that, but tonight I may try.

Edited by - Prospector on 11/27/2008 11:45:06

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/29/2008 : 23:47:34

One thing is clear in the configuration -- current is flowing and since one battery is providing 500 (probably milliamps = 1/2A) and both batteries are providing 1400 mA or 1.4A, any current flow means that both batteries are undergoing a slow discharge.

If the batteries are each 80 AH, and each one puts out something around 1/2 Amp, then they will take 80 hours to discharge half way (11.8 volts). So this is about 3+ days.

Something like a light bulb, a radio (FM?), a small bilge pump, a small 12V fan or something along these lines is probably to blame.

End of the day, you should [to the extent possible], trace out your wiring from the battery (ies) to the switch, to the electrical panel and to each light, radio, depth/speed guage, GPS, pumps, fans, etc.

You can also go to the electrical panel and alternately remove hot and ground wires and measure the current, until you find the offending circuit.

Once you find the circuit, you've narrowed down your search.

Goood luck and happy hunting.

I will be starting from square 1 on my power system this winter. I plan on fully rewiring it to eliminate voltage drops in certain key areas.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 12/01/2008 : 10:01:55

This past weekend I found the drain - surprisingly it was the charger that was draining the batteries.

Here is a "before and after" of the battery hookup. I still don't have the charger hooked up, and honestly, I'm not sure what to do about it.

Here is the Battery Compartment "Before"

And here it is "After"

The cure - I unhooked the charger and re-thought the way the batteries are wired. Now I have some new challenges...

The PO had used 8 GA wire for the Outboard Circuit, and for the charger. Catalina used a much lighter wire. I can't find fittings that will bridge the difference. Specifically I would like to find a spade fitting that will fit the back of the catalina panel, but go to the batteries in 8 GA.

I am not sure how to go about grounding things. The PO had a jumper between the grounds on the batteries, a ground to the OB, a ground to the panel, and a ground to the charger. Can all the grounds be attached to one bar, or would this negate the 1-2-Both switch?

How in the heck do I put on a battery isolator with the 1-2-Both switch? I spent a lot of time studying the schematics on the isolators at the parts place on the weekend, and ended up not buying on because I don't know how you would get one to work around the switch.

One battery has 12.XX volts, while the other has 8.9 V. This would indicate to me that I have a fried battery. Yay. Of course its the newer one that's dead. Here's hoping there is still some warranty on it.

Finally - Since the charger is disconnected the solution is only temporary. Has anyone else installed one of these in a way that didn't A) jump the batteries, and B) drain them when the boat wasn't plugged in?

Edited by - Prospector on 12/01/2008 10:10:57

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 12/01/2008 : 20:35:22

All the switches (battery switch and panel switches) should only be on the positive wires. The negative wires can all be on a negative bus bar or jumpered to the negatives on the batteries.
I am not a "sparky" but I do not see how you will ever blow those 60 amp fuses. My home wiring does not even have any fuses of that high an amperage. I would think it better to have fuses that protect the wiring sized perhaps 5 amps at most above what you suspect will be your max loads at any given time. Your after circuit looks okay. My circuits are a bit different. I have the outboard positive to the battery switch but I have the solar panel postive wired to the top of the positive side of the Catalina Switch Panel. My battery charger has dual leads for charging each battery and therefore I have each positve wire directly to each battery's positive terminal. The solar panel, charger and outboard negatives are wired to the battery negative jumper. My solar panel and charger positive leads, I added a fuse to each. I do not remember the fuse amperage but each fuse is sized just above the output generated by the panel and charger, respectively.

Maybe your charger is okay but the one bad battery was drawing down the other. Rcmd, try charging just the good battery and attach a voltmeter first w/o charging to the battery and then with the charger charging. If the battery is reading say 12.8 - 13 volts when not being charged and then reads over 14 volts when the charger is on, then it would seem that your charger is okay. I did not want to go the complexity/expense of wiring in a combiner/isolator to better preserve each battery. As long as both batteries remain about equal in strength, then there is no concern. But as in your case, having one bad battery and not having a combiner or isloator, will draw down the good battery. Also, if one battery is rather old and the other brand new (without a bad cell which is rare), it would be best to have both new, otherwise without a battery isolator or combiner could eventually also result in a draw down of the new/good battery as the old battery eventually becomes weaker from years of use.

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/01/2008 22:48:13

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