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The Tow Vehicle Debate rages on...

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/17/2008 : 10:11:42

So just when my mind is made up on the Suburban, it is brought to my attention that the tow rating on a Toyota Sequoia is higher than on a 1500 series Suburban.

I have heard that the Toyota ratings are more realistic / conservative, and that th evehicle is higher quality. I am confused though because they have a shorter wheelbase.

Is anyone here using a Sequoia to tow? Has anyone actually towed their boat with both vehicles?

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 13:08:55

If you are towing any great distance at all, rely on a vehicle with a long wheel base. About two years ago one of our members was towing his C25 on the freeway with a Chevy Trail Blazer, a vehicle he thought was an adequate tow vehicle. The whole rig overturned in a quick slo-down and stop situation. You need weight and wheelbase to handle emergency traffic situations.

On the other hand, if you are only traveling a short distance on rural roads, and slower speeds, a short wheel base vehicle may work fine. I towed my C25 3-6 miles to and from our local ramps every year for 18 years, without incident, with a Chevy 1/2 ton short box. When contemplating longer trips to the Nationals and Association cruise events, I switched to a GMC 3/4 ton long box with tow package and 6 liter engine. Gas prices killed that idea but you get the picture.

Soooooo, depending on your situation, size does count.

Edited by - aeckhart on 12/17/2008 13:15:36

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 13:45:54

Hey Mike (Prospector),

I paid my 2004 F-150 2X4 Supercrew (4 doors) $21,000 2 years ago thinking it was the deal of the century (so did all my office). However due to the economy downturn I was just on the Ford web site and you can get a 2008 F-150 4X4 with the 5.8L engine for only $24,500 or $575/month. Man I'm paying $550 a month for mine! If you configure exactly my truck for sometime like $488 a month. Brand spanking new.

Are you thinking of going used or new? All used trucks have also gone down drasticaly which is the reason I'm keeping mine. I think I could only get $10K right now for mine.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 14:15:53

There is no better vehicle, (regardless of the purpose), for a sailor than a Suburban, the trick is to be able to afford one. It can haul:
Sailbags
boom
crew
coolers
wet things
dry things
etc... and do it under lock and keyy

And you can sleep in it if you need to.

The Suburban is the ultimate vehicle.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 14:43:27

Longer is better, but remember that you are comparing the distance from your rear wheels to the trailer wheels with the wheel base of the vehicle and rear overhang also comes into play- a few inches won't really matter. The "Trailer Guys" (as close as I can come to experts) column in Trailering magazine answered a similar question last month and said that as long as you are within the manufacturer's recommendation you should be fine. Since they are professionals in the trailer field, I am inclined to take their word (It's more fun to just platter the walls with opinions.). Any vehicle/tow combo can easily get into trouble, and the perceived advantage of a particular aspect may, in reality, be so miniscule as to be insignificant when combined with real world variables. The physics of a decelerating tow are very complex. One improvement available in newer trucks, vans, and SUVs is "electronic sway control", my old Grand Cherokee didn't have it, but my new one does. It probably won't help in a crash type emergency, but in a panic stop (ABS over riding pedal pressure) and on long downhills it has proven its worth for me.
.
Toyota builds good vehicles, but they had some serious problems with the new Tundra all wheel drive system (not the 4WD).

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 15:04:59

February 25, 2007

BY MARK PHELAN

FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and towing capacity.

Nineteenth-Century British politician Benjamin Disraeli may have said the last type of lie was statistics, but he never went shopping for a pickup truck.

Automakers can virtually make up the towing capacity they claim for their trucks and cars, rendering a key performance statistic all but meaningless.

That may be about to change.

DaimlerChrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda and Toyota are working to create a standard test for the towing capacity they advertise to attract buyers.

Ironclad standards already control the claims automakers can make about fuel economy, horsepower and torque, but each company currently sets its own rules to evaluate towing capacity. Several automakers were publicly humiliated when they got caught using inflated horsepower numbers a few years ago, but there's no universally accepted objective measure of towing capacity.

This is no small deal. Towing capacity means as much to truck buyers as horsepower and torque do to speed freaks.

Towing capacity currently works on the honor system, but there's not much honor in the cutthroat pickup market. Virtually every time a new truck hits the market with class-leading towing capacity, its rivals magically rise to match it.

"Towing capacity is an incredibly powerful marketing tool," said GM trailering engineer Rob Krouse, who chairs the Society of Automotive Engineers committee that's developing a standard towing test.

The committee, which also includes representatives of trailer manufacturers, could have the new rule in place by the end of this year, Krouse said.

"A common standard means the customer will be able to compare apples to apples. People will know what they're getting," said Peter Frantzeskakis, vehicle engineering manager for Ford's Super Duty pickups.

The standard will define the minimum acceptable performance in a number of areas that affect safety and driving comfort, including:

• Acceleration to freeway speed.

• The ability to drive at a set speed for several miles up a defined slope.

• Braking capability from a set speed.

• Handling and stability in lane changes.

The standard will also specify what kind of trailer automakers must test with and will require automakers to test with vehicles that match the models they sell, rather than testing with lightweight stripped trucks that lack common features like power seats and windows. The new standards will also apply to SUVs and cars.

"If we all test the same way, the customer can use the knowledge to make informed decisions," Krouse said. "In the end, he will get a better product."

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 15:16:04

Steve,
(hijack)I can relate, we spent about $21k on our '99 F-250 (plus another probably $4-5k in fixes & upgrades since then), a co-worker who hauls hay on the weekends just bought a 2002 F-350 with all the bells & whistles for $18.5k. Plus, now, diesel is the cheapest I've seen since I bought the truck. Who knew a barrel of oil would fluctuate by more than $100/bbl?(/hijack)

Chris,
Regarding the Toyota, I'd say as long as you're within the manufacturer's specs, you'd be OK. I towed smaller boats with my old Toyota 4x4 (pre Tacoma days) and never had any problems. And as I've said a number of times before in this seemingly never ending debate, if Toyota made a diesel, I'd have bought that. I think if the Sequoia is rated to pull your load, it'll be a fine choice. And certainly the amenities available on the Toyotas far exceed those available on any of the big three's. Just go take one for a test drive.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 15:28:14

Not sure how well this will cut n paste into here. Anyway, below is my brief comparison of a bunch of contenders. At the bottom is the (now dead) Astro I did have. It looks as though any of these would be adequate for what I have in mind, although I don't see how weaker engines (in some cases) can pull heavier loads. I am also aghast at the fuel consumption of some of these rigs. I am sure that once I bolt a plow onto the front of it, or drag a trailer behind it, that will go from dismal to awful very quickly.

SUV's Engine Size HP Torque Wheelbase GVWR GCWR Curb Weight Tow Capacity mpg
2004 Durango 5.9 245 335 115.9 7200 4715 12 to 16
1999 Suburban 7.4 290 410 131.5 8600 5574 12 to 17
2003 Expedition 5.4 260 350 119 6800 14500 5686 8814
2006 Sequoia 4.7 240 315 118.1 7300 12000 5295 6200 16 to 22
Armada 5.6 305 385 123.2 6799 5289 6499 13 to 18

Astro 4.3 190 250 111.2 5900 9500 4309 4900 16 to 21

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 15:56:01

[url="http://www.qualitychevy.com/Chevrolet/Avalanche/"]Chevrolet Avalanche[/url]

The Avalanche LTZ RWD is powered by the Vortec 5.3L V8 SFI iron block engine with Active Fuel Management, and offers drivers 8100 lbs. of towing capacity.

I cannot drive a japanesse vehicle.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 15:59:18

I still tow "Brandy" with my Toyota Tacoma 4x4, 5 speed with the bigger 4 cylinder engine though not as much as I use too. Secret was to have the boat stripped down with only the mast and some lightweight gear below. Start out early in the morning no wind, no traffic. Top speed 45 mph, much slower up a few hills and down hill. Still do launch with the Toyota and pull out at the end of the season, low range, 4 wheel drive, 1st gear. Would never recommend this to anyone else but it has worked for me since 2001. I am also fortunate to have a chase vehicle with all the other boat gear following me....

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 18:57:36

All the web sites, brochures, et al lauding their vehicles tow ratings can be taken with a grain of salt. Here is the actual definition of tow rating: The GCWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual weight of the tow vehicle when ready to tow.

Example: I have a Chevy diesel dually. GCWR is 23,500. If the truck, when ready to tow weighs 10,000, the tow rating is 13,500. It's really rather simple.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 20:10:48

This is really quite simple. If you are going to tow any significant distance at any significant speed there is no better option than a 3/4 ton long wheelbase pickup. Anything else is a compromise in safety. I don't care how nice SUVs are (and I have a Yukon with all the trailer towing packages) they are not as good as a 3/4 ton pickup with a long wheelbase. My C250 loaded and on the trailer weighs 6800lbs. People claim that C25s weigh more than a C250 so you are going to be over 7,000lbs. That means nothing rated under 7,000lbs is a good choice. Your chart lists the Expedition as being capable but it has a short wheelbase. So does the Sequoia.

If you are not going far and not going fast then there are more options. If you are going far or fast then you want heavy and long and that is a 3/4 ton pickup, preferably with dual rear wheels.

And, thank goodness, the industry is going to standardize all of this. Right now people are making claims that look good on paper but dangerous on the highway.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 12/17/2008 20:32:42

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 20:13:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The GCWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual weight of the tow vehicle when ready to tow. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that's how the manufactures come up with the tow rating also.
That tow rating number can be taken with a grain of salt until there is an accident and the tower finds themselves in court. I would imagine that number becomes very significant.

Edited by - Happy D on 12/17/2008 20:15:26

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 21:59:33

If the big manufacturers sign on to a set of standards, I would call it a breakthrough. I am sure that the big pickups are most flagrantly abused - but who tows 11,200 lbs. on a hitch to test it. I am also certain that it filters down to the ratings on more modest vehicles. Initially it will will be interesting to compare ratings on 2008s and 2009s if it happens that quickly, but in the long term, it will be a real boon for all of us. Unfortunately, it will take a lot of the fun out of threads like this.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 09:16:59

Further adding to the confusion is that the owners forums for each of these trucks has folks making claims that their trucks were able to tow the Jahre Viking across the rockies and polar Ice cap to her final resting place, all on half a tank of gas with enough left to get home.

I appreciate the honest evaluations I'm getting from folks here who are pulling a similar load.

Nauti - I think you said in an earlier post that your 1500 series burb was inadequate for the load. I have never been to Oregon, but I imagine the grades you are facing and the conditions of your roads are a whole lot different from here. Was it the going or the stopping that caused you grief? I am looking at my list of contenders and seeing the 1500 'Burb as fairly capable - even with the small block engine in it. As a mechanic friend of mine once said, "Poor performance can be dealt with, poor braking is certain grief". Please enlighten me!

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 11:40:40

Just remember, the 'Burb is so much more than a tow vehicle and sure a 3/4 ton 'burb is a better tow vehicle but here in Kansas a 1/2 tonner is fine.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 14:07:19

Prospector, my issue with the Yukon is not hills. In fact going up hills is the situation it is best at. It is going downhill, especially into curves, and highway speeds on flat terrain that are where the vehicle is not all that it should be. A 7,000lb trailer will start to move the back end of this vehicle. On our last trip the highway department was doing lane work. There was an abrupt 2" lip between lanes. At one point I had to switch lanes. I went into the middle lane. The trailer went halfway into the far left lane. It moved the rear end of the Yukon. At 55MPH is was frightening. Thank goodness there was no car in that lane. If you are going 55MPH and need to make a quick stop or quick maneuver in a 1500-series SUV then I think you are in serious trouble.

You listed the 1999 Suburban as having these stats:

1999 Suburban 7.4 290 410 131.5 8600 5574 12 to 17

My rig (boat and trailer loaded) weighs 6800 lbs. A C25 weighs more. How can towing 7,000lbs with a vehicle rated for 5574lbs be safe??

My intent is to find a more suitable vehicle for our next trip. Specifically, a 3/4 ton pickup with a long wheelbase. Make me an offer on my 1999 Yukon.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 12/18/2008 14:46:56

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 14:42:13

Just went online for local used trucks. There are some good deals out there.

[url="http://autos.oregonlive.com/Autos?tp=TR_olive&category=search&tl=3&temp_type=detail&listing_id=226016562&seqNum=13&totNum=9&_ac=9&AD_TYPE=dealer%20used,liner,aoe_liner,bundle&FEATURE_END_YEAR=2005&FEATURE_START_YEAR=2000&M=Ford&MMCSID=123502531&PAGE=2&RSEED=3&from=related_inventory"]F250 V-10[/url]

[url="http://autos.oregonlive.com/Autos?tp=TR_olive&category=search&tl=3&temp_type=detail&listing_id=178100656&_AC=33&AD_TYPE=dealer%20used,liner,aoe_liner,bundle&FEATURE_END_YEAR=2005&FEATURE_START_YEAR=2000&M=Ford&MMCSID=123502531&PAGE=2&RSEED=3"]F250 V-8[/url]

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 14:56:14

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/dsm/763203032.html

So having the load properly secured is also important - regardless of wheelbase, eh? Thanks to who sent me this... you know who you are.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 14:59:09

Hah! That's funny! Bet getting it there wasn't so much fun though.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 15:07:14

I also searched locally and found this...

[url="http://www.trader.ca/Search/Details.asp?mknm=698&Region=-1&subcategory=201&UID=34AEB953BB12489F84292B8108532055&CAT=2&ADID=7400625&ADS=7400625%7C"]Suburban[/url]

Then I could have a project car to go with my project boat and project house... I'm a work in progress.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 16:57:15

Randy, have a look at the Chevy Avalanche while you're at it. They don't make them any more in 3/4 ton, but they do have a high tow rating cuz they are heavy.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 18:47:38

I should have mentioned that I also have a friend who tows his Santa Cruz 40 with a Toyota Tundra, from the barn where he stores it to the end of the drive way. A total of about 30 yards. He's been doing this for about 6 years. An F-450 hauls the boat to the marina/lift.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 20:00:22

I have used a regular cab Ford 250 and now use a super cab with an 8' bed with a camper shell. Much better with the longer wheelbase. The 91 with a 460 and an overdrive automatic and cruise control is my choice. I agree with Randy about it being safer and better handling at highway speeds. The disk brakes on the trailer make for a much better stop but it takes a long distance at 55. It is best to keep the distance from the next vehicle even if it gets filled in by the passing drivers. I pull from Northern California every other year to the San Juans so the pickup is parked a lot, can not justify a newer tow but have the transmission with a big cooler and change oil for the trips. It was a good deal especially for a gas unit.

Don't you guys with the diesels have a dusting of carbon on the boat after a pull?

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 20:17:05

I have towed my 89 wing several times from Knoxville to the Keys, about 1000 miles one way, mostly flat terrain. Two mountains in Tennessee. I have a half ton chevy silverado 4wd extra cab. The truck is longer than a suburban. One modification I did to the truck was to have a spring shop add another leaf to the rear. Big difference. another mod was to get rid of the crappy factory tires and get Michelin truck tires, load range D. The tires made the biggest difference.
My trailer is great, with dual torsion bar axles and 4 stainless steel disc brakes. the trailer has 9600 lb capacity, that makes a difference too.
An suv will have suv tires. Get real truck tires, Load range D. they really stabilize the truck.
These are my opinions, I may be wrong.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 11:29:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 I have towed my 89 wing several times from Knoxville to the Keys, about 1000 miles one way, mostly flat terrain. Two mountains in Tennessee. I have a half ton chevy silverado 4wd extra cab. The truck is longer than a suburban. One modification I did to the truck was to have a spring shop add another leaf to the rear. Big difference. another mod was to get rid of the crappy factory tires and get Michelin truck tires, load range D. The tires made the biggest difference.
My trailer is great, with dual torsion bar axles and 4 stainless steel disc brakes. the trailer has 9600 lb capacity, that makes a difference too.
An suv will have suv tires. Get real truck tires, Load range D. they really stabilize the truck.
These are my opinions, I may be wrong.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gloss - What year model truck and what size engine do you have?

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