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The Tow Vehicle Debate rages on...

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 17:39:19

Hey Gary,
I have a 1999/2000 model chevy silverado 4wd extra cab with 6 1/2 foot bed. I'm not sure what size V8 it is, but it is the middle size v8 which is pretty much the standard engine they put in those things. It's 5 point something liter, maybe 5.7
I get a big 9 mpg towing my boat on the interstate at about 65 or 70 mph. I have about 130k miles on it, and it's paid for.

Whatever you buy, I highly recommend real truck tires, load range D, not SUV tires.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 21:23:44

I've got a 99 Chevy Silverado also but I have the 4.8L - 2WD instead of 4WD and mine is an extended cab with the 6-1/2 ft bed. I got Michelin LTX Load Range E tires. The trailer is rated for right at 7000#'s and has drum brakes on one axle.

I'll be pulling down here on the Gulf Coast plains which are as flat as board. How do you think this will work for pulling my '89 SR/WK?

Edited by - GaryB on 12/21/2008 21:31:10

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 22:01:20

Gary,
I'm not sure how heavy your truck is, but you definitely want your truck to weigh more than what it's towing. You don't want your trailer wagging the dog. If your truck's at least 6k lbs, you should be fine, mine weighs in around 7k, at least according to the scales at the dump.

Another plug for my truck to counter my earlier negative comments. I watched one of my neighbors try to pull my next door neighbor out of the snow today with his SUV. No go. I pulled on my boots & offered to help. My next door neighbor had gotten his beemer stuck in the snow about six feet from his driveway, he'd decided he didn't need anything but weight in his trunk to add traction. He was crosswise in the street, and with the SUV parked across the street, the there was no way past the BMW w/o going around to the other side of the neighborhood. The Ford yanked him out of the snow like he wasn't even at the other end of the tether. I love this truck in the snow (now that the vacuum lockers have been fixed, had to get one shot in). We can drive around in 4x4 pretty confidently with the truck, and although I carry chains, I've never used them since I bought it.

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2008 : 10:34:56

On December 23, I bought a 2007 F-150 truck with extended cab and short bed (5.4 litres) for about $10,000. According to the 2008 trailering guide on the web I have 7600 pounds of capacity.

http://www.trailerlife.com/images/towratings/07towratings.pdf

I towed my new boat (S2 7.9) from Chattanooga, TN to Falls Church, VA on Saturday. The trip was relatively uneventful. Tennessee and SW Virginia are hilly. On the upgrades, speed fell to about 50 mph. On the flats, I tried to keep the speed to 60-65, but accidently hit 70 from time to time. The 7.9 is about the same size as a C-25 with swing keel.

The truck got 18 mpg on the way down and 12 on the way home. I didn't have to do any panic stops, so I can't really comment on that. I will say that I wouldn't do a similar trip in a smaller truck.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2008 : 17:14:20

A few points to clarify earlier posts.

Most SUVs and 1/2 ton trucks come with "P" rated tires, as in "passenger car." All 3/4 ton and larger trucks come with "LT" tires as in "light truck." The LTs are much tougher and do a much better job when towing.

Someone said the tow vehicle needs to weigh more than the load it is towing...based on the tow vehicle, that is not true. My 38' 5th wheel weighs nearly twice what my diesel dually truck weighs...but the truck is built to haul a load just like that, and it does it without breaking a sweat.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2008 : 20:13:11

Hey Bruce,
By any chance did you buy your S2 from Bill Richardson at Privateer Yacht Club? He's a very good Catalina 22 sailor who had an S2-7.9 for sale. If you bought it from him, then you probably got a good boat, because he seems like a guy who takes good care of his equipment.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2008 : 04:34:35

another thing to consider is the hitch. I'm not sure what you call the square tube which goes into your receiver and to which you attach your ball to. You can get them in varying wall thicknesses. the cheap ones have thin tubing sections, I got one with much thicker sections. A friend of mine who knows lots about this told me to get one with a thicker wall as sometimes the thin ones shear where the pin goes through.
One thing to consider if you have a 2 wd truck is pulling a heavy trailer out of a steep ramp and if the ramp is slimy. I have made the mistake of not putting my truck into 4wd mode (low). In 2wd the rear wheels just spun on a slimy ramp, but pulled in 4wd low.
Load range E tires would even be better than my load range D. The truck tire walls are more stable to swaying than SUV tires.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2008 : 06:04:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 A few points to clarify earlier posts.

Most SUVs and 1/2 ton trucks come with "P" rated tires, as in "passenger car." All 3/4 ton and larger trucks come with "LT" tires as in "light truck." The LTs are much tougher and do a much better job when towing.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are right. I replaced my ford 150 super cab 4x4 tires with BF goodrich AT's. I believe they are "E" series for trucks. Rears are 85 lbs - fronts get 65 lbs. Hard ride? Not at all but I can tell you it has done wonders for towing and stability. The original Goodyears were horrible compared to these. Traction is much better also.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2008 : 12:55:21

A final consideration. You can weigh the benefits of longer wheelbases, more weight and many other factors in tow vehicle selection, but towing speed may be the overwhelming factor. It is the inability of the tow vehicle to dissipate the energy of the trailer in a controlled manor that causes accidents. Compared to the kinetic energy of the trailer at 40 mph., it increases in easy to remember roundings by 60% at 50 mph., 50% more from 50 - 60 mph., and another 40% from 60 - 70 mph. Cautious driving is key, even if you "can't tell it's back there"

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2008 : 13:58:54

This is a very good point. I've learned to switch from my usual 4-5 seconds while driving normally, to at least 12 seconds between me & whoever's in front of me while towing. I learned this the hard way about 15 minutes after driving off with our new boat. Fortunately it didn't result in an accident, but it was a near thing.

I was the one who said you want your truck to outweigh your trailer, obviously this isn't correct, but you definitely want your truck to have some heft, and having a very functional braking system is paramount.

Giving yourself enough time to employ that braking system is simple to do, and probably the easiest way to keep yourself out of trouble.

Also having LT tires makes a difference, keep them inflated properly, and have the right tires on your trailer as well.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2008 : 22:53:20

I have towed "Quiet Time" at least 7000 miles since 2003 and I am pretty much convinced that the best and safest tow vehicle for a boat as large as a C-25 is a 3/4 or 1-ton pickup truck, preferably diesel, and preferably manual trannsmission. Here's why:
Pickup trucks are no-compromise work vehicles designed for hauling or towing heavy loads. The chassis, brakes, powertrain, and suspension are all optomized for "getting the job done", and not necessarily providing a cushy ride and creature comforts.
Why a diesel? Two reasons: 1) 14 mpg fuel economy while towing that C-25 is a lot easier on your wallet than the 8 mpg you would be getting in a gasoline engine truck. 2) Diesel engine compression braking on long downgrades can save you from overheating your truck and trailer brakes. Gas engines offer no significant compression braking.
Why a manual transmission? 1) Durability and reliability. If you do a lot of towing, the typical 5-speed or 6-speed manual gearbox that is available in Chevy, Ford, and Dodge pickup trucks will likely go twice as many miles as an automatic before needing a repair or replacement. 2) Less heat. Manual transmissions don't generate as much internal waste heat as automatics, and they don't dump it into your engine's cooling system like automatics do. You're less likely to overheat the truck on long upgrades with a manual transmission. 3) Compression braking in second or third gear on downgrades works better with a manual transmission than an automatic.
As far as I know, you can't buy any of the big SUV's like the Expedition or Suburban with a heavy-duty manual transmission, so as far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't even be considered as a "heavy duty" tow vehicle.
As for the Toyota Tundra and Missan Titan, if you look underneath one at the components that really matter in deciding what makes a "heavy duty" tow vehicle, it looks to me like the brakes, driveshaft and U-joints, axle tubes, frame rails, tow hitch attachments, etc. are sized more like what you see on an American half-ton pickup like the Ford F-150, rather than the 3/4 ton or 1-ton F-250 or F-350. I don't care what the towing rating says, if a truck has 12" brake rotors instead of 14", with single instead of dual-piston calipers, and the driveshaft is 1" smaller diameter than an F-350 driveshaft, it's a half-ton truck and I would not tow a Catalina 25 more than a few miles with it, and at no more than 45 mph. If you had to make a panic stop, too much risk of jacknifing the whole rig, or maybe damaging the frame rails at the trailer hitch attachment points.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2008 : 09:28:00

"want your truck to outweigh your trailer, obviously this isn't correct"

Actually your statement is correct... you WANT the tow vehicle to weigh as much as or more than the trailer... doesn't always NEED to be so, but that's the best setup. Note that on a standard 80K 'big rig' truck, the tractor is about 1/2 the GVW.

Larry has it nailed above. Best towing setup is a 3/4 ton or better turbo-diesel... but you can do it with less. I have a 94 (first year) 4X4 Powerstroke LWB stretch cab with the towing package. Doesn't get much better than that... about the only thing one could wish for are dualies and a 6 speed.

14.5 mpg towing the C25 through the coast ranges of California, 20-22 mpg freeway unladen. Unfortunately, in later years the mfg's engaged in a diesel horsepower war and mileage suffered. I'm going to keep mine as long as it's practical.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2008 : 10:02:31

I don't think there is much question about an optimum tow setup, it just that some of us can't afford to put mega-package in the garage and get it out for two round trips a year. Everything is a compromise and lesser vehicles are satisfactory for many when driven appropriately.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2008 : 13:16:01

If you look closely you can see the electric brakes setup on the trailer.
I set the electric brake switch so the trailer brakes just slowed the Jeep a bit.

paulj

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2008 : 18:50:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 Gary,
I'm not sure how heavy your truck is, but you definitely want your truck to weigh more than what it's towing. You don't want your trailer wagging the dog. If your truck's at least 6k lbs, you should be fine, mine weighs in around 7k, at least according to the scales at the dump.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My truck is a 1/2 Silverado and as I mentioned it's got 4.8 L V-8 and Michelin LTX Load Range E tires.

I'll only pull the boat a couple of times a year about 35 - 40 miles each way and I can go down back roads and keep the speed down.

I'm thinking about going to electric brakes. I will normally be lifted into the water with a travel lift.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2008 : 09:30:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 Diesel engine compression braking on long downgrades can save you from overheating your truck and trailer brakes. Gas engines offer no significant compression braking.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was under the impression that it was the other way around, ie gas engines compression braked better than diesels; which is partly why OTR diesels have additional engine brakes (aka "Jake Brake").

Not [yet] having any RW experience with diesels, I could be wrong - so if you have info that diesels compression brake better, I'd be interested if you'd pass along. At this point I intend to add a manual exhast brake to my next truck [diesel], but if the diesel compression brakes "better" it may not be necessary.

I can, however, assure you that gas engines have plenty of compression braking. I use it all the time in my Jeep w/ a 5sp tranny. 4-wheeling, you'd be riding the brakes all the time downhill if it werent for compression braking in the engine. Obviously a manual trans will compression-brake better than an auto.

Jim

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2008 : 11:21:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 Diesel engine compression braking on long downgrades can save you from overheating your truck and trailer brakes. Gas engines offer no significant compression braking.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was under the impression that it was the other way around, ie gas engines compression braked better than diesels; which is partly why OTR diesels have additional engine brakes (aka "Jake Brake").

Not [yet] having any RW experience with diesels, I could be wrong - so if you have info that diesels compression brake better, I'd be interested if you'd pass along. At this point I intend to add a manual exhast brake to my next truck [diesel], but if the diesel compression brakes "better" it may not be necessary.

I can, however, assure you that gas engines have plenty of compression braking. I use it all the time in my Jeep w/ a 5sp tranny. 4-wheeling, you'd be riding the brakes all the time downhill if it werent for compression braking in the engine. Obviously a manual trans will compression-brake better than an auto.

Jim
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm probably wrong in saying this but diesels engines have a higher compression ratio than most gas engines and should therefore "compression brake" better than a gas engine. Big rigs weigh substantially more than our trucks and for that reason may have to run a "Jake Brake" in addition to using compression braking to aid in slowing the truck down when fully loaded.

Edited by - GaryB on 12/29/2008 11:23:19

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2008 : 13:44:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 [quote]Originally posted by SailCO26
 I'm probably wrong in saying this but diesels engines have a higher compression ratio than most gas engines and should therefore "compression brake" better than a gas engine. Big rigs weigh substantially more than our trucks and for that reason may have to run a "Jake Brake" in addition to using compression braking to aid in slowing the truck down when fully loaded.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Paradoxically, big rigs have Jake brakes (Jacobsen braking systems) precisely because their higher compression diminishes their engine braking. The compression is such that it "bounces" the piston from the compression stroke to the power stroke, even with no ignition. The Jake brake releases the compression at top-dead-center (making a loud POP that adds up to that roar), creating a vacuum in the cylinder on the power stroke (with no ignition).

I suspect that the lower-compression gas engine has slightly better engine braking characteristics than a non-Jake-brake diesel, but much less than a diesel with Jake brakes. Anyway, I don't think your neighbors would appreciate you having a Jake brake in your car or truck.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2008 : 13:59:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Paradoxically, big rigs have Jake brakes (Jacobsen braking systems) precisely because their higher compression diminishes their engine braking. The compression is such that it "bounces" the piston from the compression stroke to the power stroke, even with no ignition. The Jake brake releases the compression at top-dead-center (making a loud POP that adds up to that roar), creating a vacuum in the cylinder on the power stroke (with no ignition).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's the impression that I've been under.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Anyway, I don't think your neighbors would appreciate you having a Jake brake in your car or truck.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Neighbors would definitely NOT like a Jake-brake, however I'm considering an exhaust brake, which while working on a similar principle (leveraging the exhaust backpressure) doesnt generate the same noise signature as an engine brake (aka "Jake brake").

The only reason I'm on the fence about the exhaust brake is the Ford PSD uses hydraulic lifters, and I understand that excessive exhaust backpressure is bad for these guys.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 09:52:01

Just a quick wrap-up.

Tonight we pick up our new-to-us tow vehicle. This is the biggest thing I have ever owned, and parking it will be... interesting. I found an older (1996) diesel Suburban 1500 within my price range. Its mileage is high, but it has a few "nice" (?) bonuses.

The Previous owner put extra leaf springs in, so it will pull a little better (Yay - I was going to do this anyway with whatever I bought) but then he decided that stopping there would be a shame, so he put a full 3" body lift on the truck. Sitting up that high, it looked silly with the tiny tires on it, so he put on some bigger wheels and tires. Not quite monster truck level, but something close to it. You sit really high in this thing.

I wasn't planning on ramp launching (I have a fin keel) but if I have a truck that lets me get that far into the water, and I find a good ramp, it may now be a possibility. On the downside, I look like a total redneck in this jacked-up mudbogging machine.

But there are some SERIOUS plusses in the interior. First it is a base model. Nothing fancy. I like that because the less stuff there is in th etruck, the less there is to fix. All things fancy tend to break. It also has the bench seat up front. I haven't had a bench seat in ages, and I like them. You can snuggle your honey while you drive.On a more practical side, you can lose all the rear seats in the car and still have seating for 3 adults. Thats enough to crew the boat on race day.

When I mentioned to SWMBO that I thought this truck was a bit much, she mentioned 4 instances in the past 2 months when th ecargo space would have been needed, so I guess she's on board with it.

Now I need to find a good light bar to light up the ramps at night, and a plow to bolt onto th efront of the truck, and I'll be all set.

Thanks for your input everyone. Lets see if I'm as happy with this once I've had it for a few months...

Edited by - Prospector on 01/13/2009 09:53:41

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 11:23:13

YEE HAWW! We've gotta see this! (Just don't tip it over!)

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 12:51:10

I doubt you'll look like a total redneck...partial maybe but not total. You'd need the sticker of the kid going on a ford logo for that.

it could be worse - this could be your tow!

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 13:08:24

Chris,
Sounds like a good find, don't forget the rifle rack in the rear window & the longhorn skull on the hood & you'll be set! Oh, gotta get the mudflaps with the shiney nekkid wimmins on it too.

Seriously, sounds like a good truck for towing your boat around. If you're going to ramp launch it, you need to look into doing strap launches to keep your rear end out of the water. I made the mistake of thinking I could adequately rinse my rear wheels & brakes after immersion & found out the hard way that I couldn't. It cost me most of a boat buck to fix the damage. The calipers locked up, thrashed my rotors, actually tearing chunks out of them that you could lay a fingertip in. I realize you're in fresh water, but I'd imagine the eventuality would be the same, trashed brakes & expensive repairs.

If you decide to strap launch, several of us can give you the steps necessary to do so safely, and avoid some pitfalls along the way (I've had my share).

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 13:48:54

Be careful about crosswinds. Lifting it isn't a problem but, it does change the dynamics a bit. That plus the height of the boat on the trailer increases your roll-over potential. Just something to be aware of.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 13:57:57

Well let's see . . .
If you tires and wheels are worth more than the rest of the truck and,
The truck is worth more than your house,
You might be a redneck.
But once you hook up that sailboat behind it you will have blown your cover!
Now if it was a bass boat it would be whole nother discussion.

Edited by - on

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