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The Tow Vehicle Debate rages on...

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 17:04:48

Light bar for the top, dogs in the back; a coyote hunter special! Sounds like a great find and a fun truck. The lift will be strange but sure sounds functional.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 17:13:13

Thanks for all the tips and insight everyone. Now I'll be posting boating AND truck questions. Here's the first... How do I know if I have locking differentials? Do all Chev's come with a posi rear end?

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Kendall
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 20:23:57

You might want to check the door jamb or the equipment list on the inside of the glove box. You will see a code and turn to the internet to decipher it. If you have a locker, than you should be able to feel the rear wheels try to push the truck straight froward on quick turns. Or you could lift the truck onto jack stands, shift into neutral and try to turn one of the rear wheels, if the opposite wheel spins after one full revolution of the wheel you are spinning then you have a locker. Front axles almost always have open differentials.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2009 : 20:43:07

Whew--the kid's a gear-head!

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2009 : 10:14:51

Or you can drop the clutch on it at a redlight and see if you leave two streaks.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2009 : 10:15:16

I am cursed. Just when I think I have figured things out they fall apart. When I went to pick up the truck last night, I told the seller that I wanted to take it to a mechanic for a once over before I drove off with it. Well, the seller just went squirrely on me about how he had spent so much time, and now I had seen it twice and wasn't that enough. In the back of my head alarm bells were going off, and everything felt wrong. I walked away, my cash safely in my wallet.

Before I went to see him yesterday, I got a Carfax on the truck. turns out he is the third (not the second as he told me) owner of it. It was also registered as a commercial vehicle, and has almost no service records in the last 3 years. A bunch of other things don't seem to add up on it.

No redneck 'burban for me. I continue to hunt.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2009 : 10:35:51

Good move... That guy needs a real redneck to come along and have heart palpitations.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2009 : 13:04:59

Well, I guess the gun rack & mud flaps can wait. Good for you though, walking away from a deal is hard to do, but I agree with your assessment, if alarms are going off, it's better to walk away than jump in.

I like the idea of Carfax, but I don't trust it's that it actually records everything that's happened like they'd like you to believe. I've pulled one on the last three vehicles I've bought or sold. My Toyota truck didn't list that it'd had it's head gasket factory recalled & replaced, a major expense (and common problem on the 3 liter V-6), fortunately I had the records to prove the work had been done. I've learned to take Carfax with a grain of salt.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2009 : 09:14:08

Sorry to hear the deal fell thru, but I think walking away from that one was a good call. Seller going goofy when you talk about getting a mech involved is a BIG RED FLAG!

Carfax will give you some good info, but not ALL of it. A vehicle could be extremely well maintained and have ZERO maintenance records in Carfax. Use it as a starting point, but apply the same common sense you'd use when evaluating a vehicle w/o it.

Re the lift - 3" isnt that much in the overall scheme of things, especially on something the size of a 'Burban. I'm not a fan of "body" lifts, but to each his own.

Re the differentials - I suspect when you say "locker" you're really looking for a LSD (Limited Slip Differential). If you have a true "locker", you won't be able to corner for squat unless you're in mud or snow/ice - you'll only go forward. The 2 axles are "locked" together, and both wheels spin with the same force. The issue is when you try to corner the inside wheel travels a shorter distance than the outer wheel - but if they're both being pushed at the same speed, one will overpower the other and you'll <i>chirp</i> around the corner and wear the *** outta the tires. Usually with locking diffs, there's a driver-controlled switch (air or electric) that locks the diffs when desired, then unlocks when not required. Look at the diff (front or rear, they can both have 'em), and see if there's anything <i>extra</i> going on there - such as air or electrical lines going into the pumpkin. If not, it's not a locker.

There's 2 options between the normal "open" diff and a full-blown "locker" - Posi-trac and LSD. With these the diff recognizes a spinning wheel and applies force to the opposite axle/wheel. IIRC, the differences being that posi-trac opens the other wheel (ie you can have power to one or the other, but not both) while the LSD will lock both axles when one spins. On the road the difference being during a burnout the rear end will swap drive wheels going down the road (you can feel the rear end going squirrelly) while the LSD will start out with one wheel spinning briefly followed by both wheels going for it.

IMO, lockers are great for hard-core 4WD'ing. On the road, I prefer the LSDs.

Jim

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2009 : 09:35:29

You're right Jim, I wasn't aware that an LSD was what I was looking for. Now I know. On my Volvo (C-70, daily driver) there is feature called "Traction Control" that kicks in whenever the drive wheel spins. It is supposed to apply power to the non-drive wheel. Since the car is front wheel drive, when you pull away from a stop with a heavy foot, you can feel the car wanting to sway. With the LSD, I am envisioning the same thing, only throwing the rear end back and forth with a longer moment arm. I think I've seen some of those skid marks along country roads.

A couple years ago I was looking at Toyotas that I couldn't afford, and I remember them saying their 4wd was a true 4wd since both the front and rear diffs had some sort of locking mechanism (I don't remember whether it was LSD, or whatever) whereas many other vehicles really only had 2 drive tires. That is where the question arose. I guess if its an issue to me, there is a bolt-on solution - Chevys are a dime a dozen, and parts aren't hard to come by.

Redneck guy called me back last night with a new price and he agreed to take it to my mechanic. Hmmm. Interesting.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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457 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2009 : 16:38:34

If the rear end "wiggles" back and forth, it's posi-trac. If the rear end leaves 'em both smokin' at the same time, it's LSD.

Most "4WD" vehicles (Ford, Chev, Dodge, Jeep, etc) are really only 2WD vehicles, with the ability to determine which 2 (out of 4) wheels have drive power. A little aftermarket modification can make a 3- or 4-wheel powered vehicle.

"AWD" or All-wheel drive is a different animal, and how it works/what wheel gets how much power and when is different for each mfr. Subaru is different from Yota is different from Volvo, from Benz, from [yada, yada, yada].

Getting the mech involved is your best deal. Assuming the "new price" is a lower one, bonus!

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2009 : 06:59:53

I took to our guy, he looked at it and came up with a laundry list. $1200 in repairs to get a safety certificate, and then a main shaft seal on the tranny, and an oil leak that he didn't trace. "Figured I'd let you know where we stood before I billed any more time." The mech's advice was to let this one die a peaceful death. When I called Bubba to tell him the deal was off, he hung up on me. I thought that was bad manners.

So now I continue the hunt. What ever I buy may not be as.. erm, "manly?" as that truck was, but I hope it will meet my needs.

In my hunt, I came across this car this morning - I don't think it would pull the boat, but it sure looks cool - and its in my price range... http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-Chrysler-1948-chrysler-de-soto-forsale-W0QQAdIdZ86019124

Edited by - Prospector on 01/16/2009 08:37:08

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2009 : 08:41:37

OOOF. Yeah, that's a fairly hefty/scary "laundry list" indeed. Probably why Cletus got his feathers ruffled when you mentioned the mech. Too bad he had to be rude on top of the deal. F'em and drive on. Next...

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2009 : 09:13:35

Positrac was a GM brand name for a clutch type LSD in the late 1950s and 60s, it has come into generic use in referring to LSD's. There are three basic types of LSD's: clutch, Sorensen, and locking. Sorensen and clutching systems dominate the street car world because they are smooth, quiet, and a 60/40% torque split is adequate for most situations. Lockers, like Detroit Lock-R, use a racheting like mechanism that rapidly locks and unlocks the differential (multiple times per second) as loads change and provide a true 50/50% torque split since the two axles are rotationally locked when engaged. Lockers make a clicking sound when turning as they lock/unlock to accommodate the the inside wheel traveling a shorter distance. If you are driving near the limit, you can feel the rear twitching faintly as you round a corner - an interesting sensation the first time you experience it. On the front axle, a true locker is only usable in off-road conditions and are usually activated by an electric, pneumatic, or hydraulic controller by the driver.

AWD, as noted, comes in many flavors, but are generally based on Sorensen, clutches, or a hydraulic coupling at the transmission to send power to front and rear differentials (central differential) or to each wheel individually (usually hydraulic).

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2009 : 09:34:14

You guys are amazing for info that I don't know how to find. I have been googleing LSD, Posi, rear end (gets some interesting results), towing ratios and so on, and mostly coming up with stuff I don't understand.

So when I called my local dealer about the latest contender I was told it has 3.42 posi rear end. Google 3.42 and you come up with a bunch of guys looking to install posi's out of burbans into silverados, guys looking for new rear ends for S-10's and a variety of other things having to do with performance and whatnot.

What I need to know is does a higher or lower rear end number mean a higher or lower towing capacity, and is this adequate for our boats. According to the dealer's service counter the limiting factor on this vehicle is usually the hich size, and not the truck.

Found my own answer... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061121133324AAx7sjT

Edited by - Prospector on 01/16/2009 09:40:59

Kendall
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2009 : 14:33:12

The higher the number, the lower the gear. Its a ratio 4.10:1 < 3.42:1. So if you want to tow a trailer, or go up a hill, or run 31's like that Suburban, than you want a lower gear. Its like shutting off the automatic overdrive on some trucks, Higher RPM for the same speed means more torque.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2009 : 14:36:13

If you're asking about rear-end gear ratios, a HIGHER numeric means a LOWER gearing. eg: a 4.10 rear end is geared lower ("more power") than a 3.73 rear end ("more mileage").

Just remember that the rear end is only a part of the whole equation. Add in transmission gearing, transfer case gearing and tire/wheel size - as well as what engine they're paired to. A diesel can get away with a higher gearing (lower numerically) than a gasser.

Jim

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Raaj
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2009 : 05:10:13

Thatâ€™s not how the Napa City Council sees it. City officials cast the proposed 3,200-home project as a planning blunder of major proportions, jeopardizing city residentsâ€™ quality of life.
--------------
Raaj
[url="http://www.freecarforum.com"]New Cars[/url]

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