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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 12:21:05

Let me reiterate what Paul is proposing will NOT cost members a penny.
What we as your elected officers are trying to do is to add services that members may want. We are NOT saying anything is broke.

And from the sound of it, most are either NOT interested in adding additional services/benefits or perhaps you have other ideas. This is the proper forum to exchange ideas and comments.

Paul is correct, we do want to make joining and renewing easier. I have personally gotten many complaints re this issue. And the current way our membership is set up, its somewhat cumbersome to manage.

Finally, we are NOT looking to increase revenue but would like to increase the number of paid members. There is a high number of members who do not join and pay the $22 membership. Is that ok with you paid members?

Let me throw out this idea and I am prepared for any heat. How do you feel if non paid members were charged a fee for listings on the swap meet? What amount, I don't know. The idea is first, to give paid members added perks and second to try to entice those to join.

Keep your comments coming. This is YOUR Association and nothing would be done without your approval. Even if that means the status quo,
then so be it.

Steve A
Treasurer

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 12:42:59

I think that the majority of this site is due to non paying members of the fourm, why not lock everything down to paying members except for the general fourm, you can read the post but not reply. This would take the fourm to a more personal level, with the paying membership. Inserting photos is a must, if we need to update the php software to add this option it should be done. All images need to be moderated before they hit the net, I could do this with the older php software I had on windycrest site. There are allot of options out there provided someone knows the code. I was very entry level for experence, but with trial and error got it to work. Fourm email, VIP fourms, photo uploads, memberships, and moderation of the paying membership. It's a huge task.

What we need to ask is what will get fourm members to pay dues, but not loose them as our guest.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 12:46:28

Note: can you make the notice at the bottom of the page a little more attractive? It just screams out to me that someone was, or is going to be sued.

Thanks everyone for all your hard work, I have been there and you all don't get the credit needed.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 12:49:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 ...How do you feel if non paid members were charged a fee for listings on the swap meet?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't see a problem with that, except implementing it could be tricky, and it could require some ongoing administrative effort. Snitz is what it is.

Regarding locking down forum activity, I'm strongly against it. Potential buyers and members get value from being able to ask questions about our boats, and members in turn get value from the exposure, the information, and the community--it makes our boats more valuable.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/19/2009 12:53:39

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 12:50:27

The problem with switching forum software is the risk of loosing our forum history. Most of the stuff I have read on the net are concerns where they were unable to import data from the old forum to the new. (Of course, we could probably pay a company to do it.. that would be a charge to the assoc.)(and I'm not in that line of work!)

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 13:10:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Finally, we are NOT looking to increase revenue but would like to increase the number of paid members. There is a high number of members who do not join and pay the $22 membership. Is that ok with you paid members?

Steve A
Treasurer<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
To answer your question, it's perfectly OK with me if we have a large number of participants who do not join and who do not pay the $22. membership. Regardless of whether or not they pay, the only thing I care about is whether I get my money's worth of value, and the answer is that I do. The guys who originally set up this forum were smart enough to understand that very few people would be willing to log onto this website and pay a $22. membership fee without knowing whether the benefits of membership are worth $22. By allowing people to participate for free, we enable them to get a taste of the website, so they can decide whether it is worth joining and paying the fee. After people have participated for free for awhile, many of them form friendships among the members, and begin to feel that they aren't paying their fair share, and that's when they decide to join and pay. Enough people have joined in that manner to pay the necessary expenses of the Association, and to contribute to occasional get-togethers among the members.

If the principal purpoise of this association was to conduct a business for profit, then we would want to maximize our revenue, but, since it is a non-profit social association, the only thing that really matters is that we generate enough reveune to meet our needs.

There's nothing wrong with the status quo if the existing system is working to the satisfaction of the members.

Edited by - on

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 13:21:08

Interesting discussion, I missed all of this over the weekend. I am not ready to pass judgment one way or the other quite yet, but have a question. In my topic "Membership - An invitation to join" in the General Sailing Forum, I mentioned a Copy or Sample of Mainsheet being available as a button on the side. This was in concurrence of all of the elected officers at the December meeting. Has this proven to be impossible to accomplish? If so I should change what it says.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 13:33:20

So I've read through this whole thread a couple of times, and I think Paul distilled it down fairly well. Here are my thoughts:

An image hosting ability would be a good thing. How many times have you gone back to read an older post about a project you're interested in and found the photos to have suffered link rot? On Shutterfly (which is what I use), somehow the photos over time become more like thumbnails instead of full sized. I've gone & fixed a couple of my posts but this is incredibly tedious to do. If images were hosted natively on this site, link rot wouldn't happen, or if it did, it'd be our own problem to solve instead of relying on third party hosting sites. I would use this feature.

The ability to generate a sailplan online & then be able to forward/store/reuse, etc. would also be a good thing. I think the distinction between filing a plan & creating a plan has been well defined. I would use this feature.

Blogs. I maintain a blog on Blogspot.com separate from this site, and it generally has little to do with sailing. On occasion if I post about sailing I'll link back to my own blog in the forum so others can read if they choose. I use my blog to vent frustrations, so I don't generally advertise it to the forum at large. Who wants to read rants all the time? Rita on the other hand writes her blog to keep her family in Malaysia, Singapore & Oz up to date with our going's on and similarly probably wouldn't advertise it in the forum. I tend to look at the forum as my sailing blog, with input & joshing going on. I like this style of writing & rapport between other forum members and myself and intend to keep doing so. I would probably not use a forum supported blog (and Paul has already dropped this idea).

Maintenance & other logs. I don't do this as well as I should, and a way to keep track & set reminders, etc. would be handy to me. I would use this feature if implemented.

Another item, preserving & archiving knowledge. In another thread on the 250 forum, Arlyn Stewart has indicated that his site is down due a situation out of his direct control (I don't know details). As most folks know his site contains a wealth of information for the C-250 line and it would be a shame to not have access to it. I know I have used his site any number of times for ideas & methods for making our boat safer, more controllable, more comfortable, etc. Having the ability to store content like this would be a good thing.

I'm still on board with helping to test any new software you'd like to write for the forum.

Oh, and I think that charging non-paying members to list items in the swap meet is a bad idea. It'll irritate the non-members who will no longer post items there, and it'll hurt the paying members because they don't get first shot at targeted items. I go out of my way to list things I'm selling here on our swap meet usually at a discount to what I'll list it for (and generally sell) on Craigslist or occasionally Ebay. If I can't sell it on our swap meet or don't think it's appropriate for the forum, I list it on Craigslist instead, which is also free.

Edited by - delliottg on 01/19/2009 13:38:34

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 14:04:02

I agree with Steve M. above. The Membership drive should center around what we already have to offer and anything new should be afforded to all who care to join the forums unless it is something that costs the Association more to provide, then a vote of the members should be considered. The Forums are what makes the Association great because they provide mutual sharing of a passion and invite participation without commitment. Friendships and trust are built with advice, support and help which may or may not lead to individuals desiring to support the Association. The "selling" of Mainsheet subscriptions is not to make money but to make people aware of a tool which can truly be helpful.

My reason for suggesting the Membership drive was because of my own experience. When I first became interested in a Catalina 250 I discovered the Forums and quickly joined to take advantage of the expertise and experience available. I thought I was a member for nearly 2 years when I realized that a vote was coming up and I couldn't vote. Of course I had acquired a great amount of respect for the support I had already received and I joined the Association. It is this confusion of membership that I wanted to correct for others who may be unaware as I was. (Maybe I am the only one).

Edited by - KD4AO on 01/19/2009 14:07:33

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 14:21:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Capri25
 Note: can you make the notice at the bottom of the page a little more attractive? It just screams out to me that someone was, or is going to be sued.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Chris, no one was or is going to be sued. And I doubt it will ever happen here. But it doesn't mean it can't happen.
Most forums have some type of disclaimer like this. With this "ugly"
notice, we are just trying to minimize the damage in the event is does happen to either the members or officers. Not sure how to make it more attractive.

Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 01/19/2009 15:28:24

Bortiquai
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 14:58:12

Why not get rid of "Membership Fees" altogether? $22 seems like a fairly arbitrary number anyway. This site only has any value what-so-ever because of it's members and their participation. Everyone involved benefits. I have to believe (maybe just hope) that was the original intention of whoever started this.

What about the cost of running a site? Voluntary donation. People will help. That's the theme of this entire thing anyway.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 15:30:47

As is often the case, this thread has split into a couple of topics.

Topic #1 Paul's proposal.
I still believe that creating content behind closed doors will be detrimental to this forum. I just think that if a contributor was going to enter the site, do all the things that are proposed to be done in the proposed "Member's Only" area, he or she would be disinclined to repeat that information in the more open forum as it currently exists. Therefore, content could have the potential to be lost to the rest of us.

Topic #2, Paul's motives
Understand that I believe Paul's motives to be honorable. I appreciate all the effort he has given to this association. And, I really mean GIVEN. I doubt that any of the doctors, dentists, lawyers and shoe salesmen among us would be so free to give away our product to perfect strangers. But, that's precisely what Paul has done by administering this website for the association. Thank you, Paul. Should this proposal be adopted, I would have no issue with Paul earning a profit from future sale of his product.

Topic #3 Member's Only area.
I think we continue to have a need for a "Member's Only" area. But, I think the content of that area should be limited to those things that have to do with money and the business of this association -- not the content of the forum. For example: The annual report to stakeholders; The meeting minutes; and, as a perk for membership, the discount codes for members' use when making purchases with merchants that have agreed to provide them.

Topic #4 Do I care if my dues pay for the use of this forum by non-dues paying users?
Not at all. We have a long tradition of the few paying for the many in the United States. My excellent city schools are paid for by my home owner taxes. Renters in my community come along for the ride. My public radio station... My church.... You get the picture. I'd be willing to pay more than the current rate for all the things I receive from this site. (That's not a suggestion to raise the rates, however.

)

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 15:34:13

The fees cover the costs of our web site, 1 paid part-time staff member, the Mainsheet Magazine and other misc. costs. Its basically a break even point.

I don't believe there is any way to get rid of the $22 membership and still do what we do. The cost of the Mainsheet is quite expensive and if no fees then would we mail one to every member and pray enough people donate to pay that cost. I don't think the editor of that magazine would go for that.

Steve A
Treasurer

Edited by - piseas on 01/19/2009 15:40:26

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 16:23:56

Amongst the stuff written above, I interpret a new idea... what if we added the features but made them all public, leaving the existing members only area (minutes, discount codes, telltales) as is.

I could do that! of course, I would still incurr the expenses of doing so and would need to recover them somehow.
The most obvious answer is sponsorship, a method employed on many sites, basically it would mean advertising.

However those members and guests that did not use the features would not be subjected to the ads.

The only issue would be the image hosting. As folks would not be paying for the service then anyone could sign up and post rugly stuff, or even rvugly stuff.

This issue is suffered by every website that allows uploads. Most of them have a 'report inappropriate content' link, and many of them have mgmt oversite (moderators) that actually view the content (with a few tools that make it easy to pic out rugly text and to list recent images)

We don't have the employees to manage that potentially huge upload risk. Again, I could use certain tools to minimise it, I've written enough web site mgmt tools over the past 15 years of website programming.

But the concept has an appeal to it.

what do you guys think?

Paul

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 18:35:50

While not exactly proposed, this conversation has caused me to consider that in terms of members/nonmembers - I think there is something to be considered with having more robust features not available to nonmembers. It would incentivize membership.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 18:52:03

Paul, I think that anything that would improve the site for members would be a great idea. How do we get more fourm members to pay for a membership? This still is the most important issue at hand. I need to send in my money, I don't visit the site as often as I did, I think that things have gotten spread out, hence my first post.

As for the notice, make it look better, I know that there isn't a lawsuit, I read the general fourm. I think the yext needs to be reformatted, maybes a little smaller, a drop shadow for the border, and maybes a light outline of a sailboat.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 20:11:38

Chris thanks for the opinion about the 'Notice:'

I'll respond on the General forum.

Paul

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2009 : 16:08:11

I also agree with Steve Milby's assessment. And I think Paul's offer to make all things accessible is good. It is these things and the comradery that entice membership.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2009 : 20:53:49

fwiw I argue that change well thought out should be welcomed. To me, status quo simply means a lack of interest, imagination or, perhaps more realistically, the resources (time/$$$/skill/?) to improve a given situation. Paul, I view your proposal as an opportunity to make improvements to the association and commend you and the other Association Officers in taking this step. As often happens, however, it appears the discussion is bogged down by considerations of approach rather than objectives. Like others, I am hesitant on some aspects of the proposed approach, but before going there we should first focus on what issues face the association and identify and prioritize objectives to address them. Let us first focus on what we would like to see improved and later address how to get there.

Several objectives of interest were proposed but perhaps there are others that should also be considered before deciding how to prioritize efforts. As others noted, improved membership management and image hosting sound great. If new ideas are acceptable, I offer the following - I do not pretend to have any understanding of the underlying workings of our current web hosting software, but our present search capabilities could certainly be improved if that were a possibility. Under the present implementation imho, the collective wisdom of this association is not well utilized. Others may openly disagree, but in the 3 years I have followed this site, it seems that many questions could benefit by ready access to past discussions - even if only to add a different perspective or level of detail. Related to that is also the notable shift in expertise over time as participants come and go and as individual skills evolve. The present approach is working but to be able to readily tap the expertise accumulated over the history of the forum rather than just that present at a given point in time would be so much better. Obviously the present search capability is an effort to this end; I am only suggesting it could be improved upon.

Bottom line, should this discussion focus on those objectives proposed or generalized to include any idea for improving the association.

Edited by - glivs on 01/21/2009 06:32:35

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2009 : 16:23:44

G&L,

I would like to address two of your issues. First I agree there is a need to identify and prioritize objectives. Yes there is a need to first focus on what we would like to see improved and later address how to get there.

Re the 1st half, the needs. That should come from the members. Paul has come up with ideas as expressed by the members. We can add, delete but we need to hear from members. Only a few so far have expressed their needs on this forum. Also please don't forget, the officers meet on a monthly basis. And we now have switched over to Skype in order to include the members at these meetings. To date, no member has taken advantage of that offer. Paul posts the time and date. All you need is Skype and a headset/speakers and mic. This is a first come first serve basis and its a standing offer. Enough said.

Re the 2nd half, the how to. I believe that will be left up to our web designer, Paul. He has put a lot of time in this Association and without due credit. I may be sticking my neck out, but I don't think if someone had the IT knowledge, Paul would turn them down.

Now re the 2nd issue of search capability, I am not sure what you mean that its an effort. Can you elaborate. I personally find it fairly easy and appreciate that we even have that ability. I have looked on other sites that have no or little capability. In fact I was looking into moving to a free web hosting service but there is NO ability to move our old posts over.

To this end, I don't know if we need an ad hoc committee or not and I know the officers don't want to make arbitrary decisions either. This Association is for and by the members. That is one of the things that makes it so great.

Steve A
Treasurer

Edited by - on

sterngucker
Navigator

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USA
169 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2009 : 18:07:45

Paul,
My 2 cents as a long time member (has it been five years already?)...

keep the forum open as it is, brings in the casual observer, then they get hooked when they see what a valuable resource this is.

offer a few incentives to join, like members only access to picture (and video?)hosting, access to members listings, member discounts from participating vendors, the ever attractive and exclusive burgee purchasing, not to mention the Mainsheet subscription.

make it easier to become and stay a member, to find out when our membership expires, maybe an info box on our profile editor page?

I think my last renewal was for two years, although I don't remember when I last renewed, let's see... was it last year?

Edited by - sterngucker on 01/21/2009 18:09:32

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2009 : 20:38:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Can you elaborate. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Steve, First I agree with whoever noted earlier that this is a great site. We are all very indebted to those who have made this forum possible. As to the search capabilities - they too are very good; I am only wondering if it would be of value to improve upon them.

We currently have some flexibility in selecting multiple search options, e.g. key word and member name. Even so, however, searches can sometimes result in many pages returned many of which are of no interest. Objective: focus search capabilities such as might be offered by a "search within results" option or some ranking mechanism based on the number of times the key word is cited in the thread. Pages with only a single reference to the "key words" are often not of interest but there currently is no way to screen them.

Searches are currently driven by the "key words" chosen by the user. Objective: offer an alternative search capability based on a selected number of keywords that can be indexed to help speed up searches, organize and present content. Is it possible that "bots" could be used to periodically index threads? I recall reading in the Mainsheet that the Catalina 30? forum indexed their forum threads, organized them and published them as a technical manual.

This last thought is simply to identify an intermittent but not uncommon search failure. On occasion, especially when attempting to carry out back to back searches a "No results" is returned. This is not the result of a misspelling or similar user error. When this occurs I usually close and reopen my browser and reissue the search. Almost always the second time it performs correctly. I do not know if closing the browser is actually a solution, if this problem occurs when the server is busy or if there is really something about repeat search attempts. ???

Nothing major...just brainstorming on one of those long winter evenings.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2009 : 22:53:21

Regarding the search:

Do you guys use the Google Search Option of our website?

Try it out, you might be surprised at how well it works.

Our site is very well indexed on Google et. al. so using google to search the site is very fast and very flexible.

So, do you use it?

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2009 : 16:50:53

Again, my encouragement: 1. yes, 2. yes,3. sometimes, 4. possibly. Essentially, we would be beta testers with ongoing, free upgrades - a very good deal. Since this would not impact the forums, cost the association, nor obligate anyone to use the services, I am strongly for it.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2009 : 16:56:07

Paul, Actually until just now I had not used the Google search. Have to admit it is fast.

Edited by - on

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