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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

do we need lifelines?

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Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/25/2009 : 14:27:06

I'm thinking of removing my lifelines and stanchions. It seems like it would be easier and safer climbing around the boat without these knee-high cables and the stanchions in the way. You would have clean side decks to step on and not awkwardly step around on a pitching boat. Has anyone done this? Has anyone's life been saved by a lifeline?

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2009 : 15:00:33

If you do any offshore sailing or have children onboard, I recommend leaving them on. For calm inland lake sailing, much more optional.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2009 : 18:36:21

I'd say keep them. They seem to come in handy at least once a season....especially when it gets a little rough and you need to go forward. Opening the pelican hooks makes egress much easier

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2009 : 19:37:19

Lifelines aren't required, but they're an effective safety device. If you're standing full upright, they won't be very effective in keeping you on the boat, but you aren't likely to fall off the boat standing upright. You'll most likely fall off the boat when it's heeling severely, and you'll be crouching down, not standing upright. If you fall, it'll probably be because your feet slip out from under you, and you'll slide to the low side of the boat. There's a good chance that the lifelines and stanchions will catch you and prevent you from sliding off the low side of the boat. How do I know? Because they've caught me, most recently last summer.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2009 : 19:58:34

Gee, I always thought part of the sailboat "look" was the lifeline. And, I need them to hang my fenders. Interesting notion, no lifelines. Hmmf.

Deric

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2009 : 21:11:14

Don't forget about re-sale value. I think it would drop without them.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 07:14:13

I'm only a lake sailor now and not even on a great big lake. Nor am I up north where it is very cold, or on the pacific. I don't like the lifelines and I'm removing them this year. I've had a small lake boat before ( Southcoast 22 ) and it did not have life lines and it was much easier to get around on. I never fell off and mostly did not miss them.

The only place I felt iffy was moving to the front stay when it was blowing hard.

In my lake, I'd rather go over than get caught on a kneejerk lifeline.

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 08:46:57

Thinking about this more, with roller furling, the only reason to go to the bow is when we are docking or anchoring. (or sunbathing). I would have to figure out a new furling line system which is now attached to stanchions. We do have to get to the mast, since we don't have halyards run to the cockpit. There would be a lot fewer holes in the deck to leak.... Resell value may be an issue, but how much can it hurt a $6k boat. I could save all the parts for the next owner. It would be good to be able to reef and lower the main from the cockpit, which we can't now, to keep from having to climb around in weather. If we were to actually venture off shore, ( we don't leave the sound now) a safety harness could give the security against the accidental overboard.

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mlg3733
Navigator

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118 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 09:00:55

I bet you might find these stanchions useful to grab to if you fall off the boat, though.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 09:58:15

The reasonableness of eliminating lifelines and stanchions depends on numerous factors. How big is the body of water that you will sail on? How boisterous are the winds and seas that you sail in? Do you singlehand often? How well do you swim.? Are you willing to wear a pfd or use jacklines and a tether at all times? (If you suddenly find yourself swimming in cold water in a big bay, with no other boats nearby and nobody on your boat to come get you, and with no pfd, you'll know you did something wrong.) Is your boat rigged so that you can raise and lower and furl and reef the sails without leaving the cockpit? (Even when a boat is rigged to raise and lower the sails from the cockpit, you often can't tuck in a reef without going forward to the mast on steeply sloping, wet, slippery decks, and that's when you need lifelines the most.) Depending on all the circumstances, not everyone needs lifelines, but everyone needs to consider these factors.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 10:35:44

Couple other things - where are your jacklines attached? (You do have jacklines, right?) When/if you race, how does your foredeck crew feel about being up there without them? If you ever try to take a kayak along, where/how will you store it? Do you have kids, will you have kids, or do your guests have kids?

What will the dock staff grab when you come in? Without lifelines, to lean/pull/twist/hook etc. they'll have to break something else.

In our marina (kinda touristy) boats without lifelines are featured in many family photos. Its easier to get junior aboard them so you can snap a quick picture of him at the wheel. Its also nice that the whole family can clamber aboard and take turns doing the "Titanic" pose standing up on the bow pulpit. The nice thing is, you can put the whole family on the bow of boat A while you get someone else to clamber aboard the boat berthed opposite it to snap the pic, facing straight on to the bow. We chase folks off the boats fairly regularly.

Finally, talk to PETA before removing your lifelines. They may have been declared a sanctuary to swallows or other small birds who eat purple things and then make use of the poop deck.

Edited by - Prospector on 01/26/2009 10:36:03

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 15:47:56

I think there are a number of pros and cons about life lines in the kinds of conditions that Cat 25s sail in. It's interesting to note that these new ultra expensive "day sailors" like the Alerion Express etc come without life lines. I always thought that life lines with a single wire at the height that are on the Cat 25 are just useless. Plus that, the jib gets caught on them when you come about.
Do I have life lines? Of course I do. But its probably only psychological rather than practical.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 19:57:37

Toss'm

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 20:09:37

One of the reasons we bought SL was the lifelines. Rita was extremely uncomfortable going forward on our San Juan 21 due to it's lack of adequate lifelines, especially on the foredeck. We wear our inflatable PFDs w/ harnesses every time we go out, and have two point tethers for each along with locking carabiners to tie off to the spinnaker halyard while on the foredeck. While I'm a strong swimmer, Rita is not, having lifelines makes us both feel more secure. If we were sailing on small lake, it probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but sailing on Puget Sound, I'm not sure I'd want to be on a boat that didn't.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 20:51:59

Where would you hang the wet bags and cloths after the sun comes out? I feel that the lines can be used once to prevent the overboard. How many overboard falls can you take? Yes they are in the way and they sag and a lot of other situations but if they give your crew some security they might be just what you need. I am keeping mine for the single handed sailing.

Edited by - sweetcraft on 01/26/2009 20:53:01

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 20:53:34

They're handy for securing a boom tent when at anchor.

Edited by - on

swanny
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2009 : 22:27:24

Where would I hang my worthless stainless steel lifeline drink holders....okay....drink holder, lost one the first time out in 3 foot seas ;) http://www.boatersworld.com/product/338470016.htm

I keep them for the kids (gotta have something to tell them not to hang on), otherwise I liked my SJ21 sans lifelines.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2009 : 13:22:13

Also, when your crew is hiking out (legs dangling overboard) while racing, it gives them something to lean against with relative safety. I also agree that removing them could affect resale value since most C-25's have lifelines.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2009 : 20:37:28

<font size="1">Quote: "Has anyone's life been saved by a lifeline?"</font id="size1">

Uh, at first I thought this thread was a joke, or perhaps a thread designed to spur activity. Fortunately, it appears that the majority understand the definition of "Lifeline."

As the other resident "safety" curmudgeon here - Dr. Dave? Hello, cleanup on aisle 5!

- I have to object. No wonder we need legalese around here! Look, just because the new Alerion doesn't have them doesn't mean you all should drink that KoolAid too.

IF, all your lines run aft, and IF you have jacklines and harnesses set up all of the time, and IF you have a competent sailor on board besides yourself (which you aren't if you removed your LIFELINES and he/she shouldn't be there either), and IF you think you are strong enough to be dragged underwater by your harness after falling overboard while underway, and IF your life insurance policy names me as your only beneficiary, TAKE EM OFF! (I am biting my tongue!

)

The guy buying the Alerion has the knowledge most likely to handle whatever, some here don't. The Alerion is designed to be handled from the cockpit. I'll bet less than 10% here are - my old C25 included. (The Lazy Jacks were there, and I bought the CD cockpit kit, just never installed it. Anyone seen Zephyr?)

Rant mode on overdrive: Geez guys, lake chop is much worse than ocean seas a lot of the time! I'm about to lose a good cruising friend to cancer - see new thread in a few - don't anyone of you get so cocky that you think you can check out by being stupid.

I'm Sten and I have been saved by my lifelines FREQUENTLY on ALL the boats I have owned - and I approved this safety message. I'm running for safety officer next trip around.

BTW - My wife's response was absolutely correct, "Uh, yeah - if you don't think you need lifelines-you don't. Darwin has a couple openings."

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - on the hard - temporary timeout in Portland OR to care for mom

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2009 : 16:21:38

Yep, they look great, serve a valuable main purpose and are handy for a whole host of other things, I'm keepin mine!

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Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2009 : 22:20:00

Sten I don't know about the certain death scenario you describe if anyone should dare set out on a sailboat with out lifelines. I've never sailed a big boat but this is my third small one and I have never once been saved by a lifeline. Now all my experience has been easy recreational stuff, I've never raced or cruised anywhere, so what do I know. I do appreciate the input.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2009 : 07:00:54

They're very useful to hang fenders on.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2009 : 08:49:13

Sten, You have convinced me. How do I go about installing them on my Zodiac?

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Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2009 : 09:36:26

I've never been saved by my PFD or harness either. Come to think of it I've never been saved by the air bag in my car or the seat belt for that matter. Or the handrail on my staircase. Or the emergency stop button on an elevator. Or the emergency exit on a airplane. Guess I don't need any of them suckers.

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2009 : 09:42:11

On hot calm days, with competent crew on board I have put on a harness connected to a painter and let myself be pulled behind the boat at 1 to 2 knots. The reason I mention this is most people probably don’t know how hard it is to pull your self back to the ladder when being dragged at anything over 2 knots. If a person single handling went over (because of no life lines) at hull speed, he may not be able to !!! (Fill in the blank)

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glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2009 : 11:40:20

Renzo as I recall you stay pretty much in the cockpit during the race. I believe the crew may entertain a different standard. I vote for keeping the life lines PS putting air bags on your boat might not be a bad idea

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