Association Forum - Pintle replacement

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Pintle replacement

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

michaelj
Navigator

Member Avatar

132 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/08/2009 : 06:22:26

I'm replacing both my gudgeons and pintles. I have gotten the new ones from Catalina Direct. The new pintles do not line up with the existing holes on the rudder. So I am planning on filling in the old holes and drilling new ones. What is the best filler to use, and should I drill the new holes in line with or offset from the existing holes? Thanks.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

Members Avatar

921 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 06:39:09

Are you sure they sent you the right ones? I think that would be the place I'd start.
Nevertheless, the correct material would be thickened epoxy. You first wet the inside of the hole with un-thickened and let that soak into the core. Then fill the hole with thickened epoxy.
After you drill the new holes, you night want to drill the holes oversize and fill those with thickened epoxy and then drill the correct size hole. That ensures the core is sealed from water.
A lot of people talk about Marine TeX, but I've never used it. I mix my own.
Having said that, it could be expensive to buy epoxy for only two or four holes. Take it to the local marina and see if they will fill the holes for you. If you're anywhere near Michigan, bring it over and I'll do it for you.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 08:46:36

Definitely treat the new holes just like the old ones. Over-drill by one bit size and remove a little core then coat with flowable epoxy (slow cure epoxy adhesive is adequate if not optimal), then fill it with thickened epoxy while the surface is slightly tacky. Re-drill the correct size hole when cured. The entire flat surface of the pintle is the load bearing surface, not the screw, so you can drill inline unless the holes are so close that that you must drill through the edge of an older hole. The new epoxy will be much harder than the old core and polyester/glass casing, making it very difficult to control the bit in an overlapping hole.

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

Members Avatar

132 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 09:09:24

Thank you for the replies. Can you please tell me how I can recognize "flowable" and "thickened" epoxy? West Marine seems to have a bewildering variety of epoxies.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 09:49:58

Michael,

Thickened epoxy is generally made with addition of additives/fillers to the epoxy mixture to firm up the mixture. The more filers, the thicker the epoxy mixture.

Check out this [url="http://www.westsystem.com/ss/fillers-and-additives/"]Adding Fillers and Additives[/url] from the [url="http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/"]Use Guides [/url] at West System's web site.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 11:49:16

The trickiest part for me was getting the holes to match up to the pintle holes on both sides. I was concerned that if I just drilled in from one side, I would "miss" the location of the hole on the other side by a small amount (at least). My approach was:

1. With a very small bit, drill half-way through from one side, and then from the other.

2. If the two holes missed in the middle (which they did), placing a bit in each hole, I could see the direction in which they missed.

3. I then re-drilled with a larger bit (but not the final size), half-way through from each side again, trying to correct for the error in step 1. This time, the holes met close to perfectly, but probably not quite.

4. Finally, using a bit that was almost but not quite the size of the bolts, I put the pintle in place and drilled in from both sides and then all the way through from one side, and with the bit coming out through the pintle holes on the other side, reamed the hole a little to size it properly for the bolt.

It was a bit tedious, but good luck with trying to hit it just right the first time through!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/08/2009 11:51:16

Happy D
Admiral

Members Avatar

921 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 15:54:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">West Marine seems to have a bewildering variety of epoxies.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is why I suggested seeing if the local marina would fill the holes for you. You would need to buy the epoxy, and then a hardener, and then thickeners, usually fumed silica, aka Cabosil or Aerosil. West sells additives in those cans and they have their own blends I just can't figure out.
Mix up epoxy with hardener and that is flow-able epoxy. It's thick like maple syrup. That soaks into the wood core. Then you mix the remainder of the epoxy with fumed silica which increases the viscosity until it is like mashed potatoes. Pack that in the hole and let it cure. This is the common practice for holes that see a lot of water. The rudder, however will probably shed water as fast as it gets wet. I would almost be tempted to just fill the old holes with Marine Tex. Caulk the new holes real well and call it good.

Edited by - Happy D on 02/09/2009 07:13:05

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 16:36:11

Dave,
I love your solution to the hole alignment problem. I'll give it a try.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 16:53:31

John, Dave's suggestion solutions are based on actual experience which is why the Forum is so valuable. You could also use two drill motors so you wouldn't have to rechuck. A small hole is easier to fix.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 09:57:56

When we did a replacement last year, my new pintles did match the existing holes...as suggested, double check you received the correct parts.

Edited by - on

farrison
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 11:15:22

Mike; When I added my third gudgeon/pintle I bought my parts from CD and like yours, the holes did not line up with those from the old pintle. Physically, the pintle was exactly the same, pin length and diameter, size of strap, etc. But the holes were just drilled in a different location on the strap. Just fill the old holes in the rudder and re-drill.
Also, like stated above, you make your own thickened epoxy. WM sells several different types of fillers, (I just bought some two weeks ago)and the colloidal silica, #406(also known as fumed silica or Cabosil), was probably the least expensive. But be very careful when using this product. It weighs almost nothing and will fly around if you stir it to aggressively. Add it to the epoxy a little at a time and mix it in gently. And with this filler you must absolutely wear a dust mask when opening and mixing this stuff. It is very hard on your lungs if inhaled (silicosis). Once it is mixed in to the epoxy it is safe. The hole drilling technique mentioned above is a good one. That's the same thing I did on mine.

Good luck:

Paul

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

Members Avatar

132 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2009 : 15:49:42

Thanks to everyone for this incredible wealth of advice. This forum is really wonderful.

Mike

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2009 : 17:28:36

No one has said anything about the gudgeons. Depending on how old your boat is, some of the early models did not use adequate backing plates IMHO, especially the lower one. I replaced the washers with aluminum plates about 2" x 4" on the inside. The hardest part was getting at the mounting points for the upper gudgeon. The forum has talked about this multiple times before. If there is no access plate, you will need to create one and cover it over with an access cover: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/7094/377%20710/0/deck%20plates/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=deck%20plates&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=deck%20plates&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5000&subdeptNum=24&classNum=12946

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2009 : 18:22:33

Beckson is the better brand, I am not much for economy products on a boat. The beauty of Beckson is the availability of replacement parts forever and from anyone. I reused the existing backing for the upper on both my 82 and 89 so I did not cut a hole, I never had an issue in a lot of wind; but I never had heavy seas, only lake chop.

Edited by - on

Headhunter
1st Mate

Members Avatar

74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 09:08:45

A little tip...When you replace the upper Gudgeon, take a piece or headboard or other 1/8" plastic and cut it to match the gudgeon. Place it behind the gudgeon to push the rudder just that much more up under the boat. Helps to relieve weather helm.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 09:27:10

...that or a balanced rudder.

But I don't see how that balances the original (pre-1989) rudder--all of its surface is still aft of the turning axis (the line through the pintles). You're just tilting the axis.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 09:30:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Headhunter
 A little tip...When you replace the upper Gudgeon, take a piece or headboard or other 1/8" plastic and cut it to match the gudgeon. Place it behind the gudgeon to push the rudder just that much more up under the boat. Helps to relieve weather helm.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sounds like a catamaran trimming trick. We trim out weather helm on Hobies by trimming the angle of attack of the rudders.

Edited by - on

Headhunter
1st Mate

Members Avatar

74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 10:30:10

Don't understand the science, but this was a tip given to me and I've noticed a difference since making the change.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2009 : 00:51:11

Tilting the axis moves the bottom and CR forward. Even if he CR is still aft of the pintles, moving it forward and in conjunction with the added downward component of the drag it should make a slight difference. It might be noticeable or it might be voodoo, I don't know. I do believe that much of our weather helm is is related more to the fullness in the bows rather than CE/CR. When you are heeled, the the greater the asymmetry in the windward and leeward arcs gives the fuller leeward bow more power to turn you into the wind.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2009 : 11:23:07

(Another winter-doldrums hijack...

) Must be voodoo. (?) Moving the CLR forward in any way increases weather helm, but I doubt it would be detectable in this case. You can balance a pivoting (e.g. beaching) rudder by pivoting it slightly forward of the pintles--Arlyn Stewart has done that on his C-250. That doesn't really reduce weather-helm--you still steer the same number of degrees to leeward, but with less effort--sorta like power steering.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.