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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/09/2009 : 16:20:30

I would like to throw out the idea of getting our Association behind officially sanctioning some Regional Regattas.

I'm not sure if the bylaws allow us to change the way we crown a National Champion.

Here is what I propose.

(1) Sanction regional races, or race series. Catalina 25/250 or Capri 25 owners who are members of this Association will

(a) pay a race fee to the International Association in addition to entry fees
(b) get a 2009 Class Regional Regatta tee shirt or hat
(c) accrue points towards the National Championship
(d) run their regional race while competing for a regional trophy from our International Association
(e) be able to buy additional copies of (b) for crew
(f) requires at least 3 boats per class
(g) classes are C25 TR, C25 SR, C250, and Capri 25
(h) or combine them all in one PHRF class
(i) C25 TR handicap 222 non spinnaker offset +19
(j) C25 SR 228 non spin +19
(k) C250 247 non spin +18 (these ratings are all used here in So Cal).

(2) national championship will be determined by

Candidate will add their score in the Regionals to their score in the Nationals. Low point method. DNC in a regional, your score is the number of boats entered + 1.

(3) Only 1 Internationally Sanctioned Regional per geographical area, per year. Regions are:

South West
Pacific NW
CA Bay Area
Midwest
Florida
Chesapeak
New England
Great Lakes
(add as many as want to organize something)

Propose a race to be a regional and the officers will assess the offer and award the bid.

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 16:21:49

This is my email to the organizers of Border Run.

> I am the Commodore of the Catalina 25/250 and Capri 25 International
> Association (900 members) and I am entered in the Border Run
> (Indiscipline 97992).
>
> We are considering officially sanctioning the Border Run. What this
> means is that the Border Run will be part of our annual race series
> leading up to our National Championship. We will make tee shirts or
> hats and provide them to our boats. We may give an Association trophy
> or prize to the winner of our class, and we will award points towards
> our annual championship.
>
> First of all, we are wondering what you think of this idea. Second of
> all, if it's OK we would like you to put something on the website with
> our logo and a link to our Association.
>
> It could be good for both of us. I'd like to see more of our boats
> enter. We may get some new members - you have to be a member to get
> the tee shirt and compete for our trophy.
>
> We are considering sanctioning events in Florida, New England, Pacific NW, Chesapeake, and so on.
>
> Our site: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/default.asp
>
> We have a very active forum.

Here is their reply:

Hi James,

Thank you for the mail. We would be honored to be part of your series. The Catalina and Capri boats are great boats (I use to sail Capri 25's in the 70's when they first came out...we were one of the first to build sails for them and race them in Newport and Dana Point).

To help build a strong class we would be happy to swap banners on the site to encourage more sailors to get out on the water. Regarding T shirts and hats you can work thru our official supplier, Ken at the Pirates Lair, to custom make some Border run / Catalina/Capri gear.

We can even hit up some of our sponsors to possibly supply some special prizes for your class. We would work with reps from your class to put on a first class event.

Call me anytime to discuss further and lets get people to start signing up today and pay later to keep the momentum going. I know there are a lot of Capri 25’s in Dana Point and Catalina 25’s and 250 from San Diego to Del Rey. How many boats do you think will participate?

Please email us a banner 182 x 72 to put up on our site. I will go to your site to check it out. Also I will send you another email that is our electronic flyer you can forward to the fleet.

Please confirm receipt of this email. Look forward to talking with you soon.

Fast Sailing!
Randy

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 21:11:30

Bravo Jim,
The “National Regattas” have never been “National”.
Only Gary Bruner (Fleet 94) managed to have more that twenty boats participate
If you go back and look at the other regattas they average 5 boats. These 5-6 boat “Nationals” are regional regattas at best.
Jim’s initiative is the first move to make racing a “Nation Wide” effort.
Regional regattas could empower the local fleets to develop and participate in the “National” Association.
Sadly we have lost most of our local fleets, this could help to re-establish their strength and value.
I would not try to define the regions yet.
For example the West Coast is North (Ore. & Wash.) and South (L.A & San Diego) the other regions will sort them selves out as this develops.
I applaud Jim’s effort to embrace ALL the racing members.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2009 : 10:50:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine

If you go back and look at the other regattas they average 5 boats. These 5-6 boat “Nationals” are regional regattas at best. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That’s absolutely untrue. I just now added the numbers of participants in every Catalina 25 National Regatta since it’s inception in 1983. A total of 275 boats participated in 23 National Regattas, for an average of 12 boats per year. (A National Regatta was not held in two years - 1995 and 2002.) In fact, except for the 2 years when a regatta was not held, the attendance at our National Regatta numbered fewer than 8 in only two years. If you cherry-pick the five years with the fewest participants, you’ll still average more than 6 boats per year.

Please explain how you arrived at an average attendance of 5 boats per year. If you can’t explain it, then the logical conclusion would have to be that you pulled that number out of thin air.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Only Gary Bruner (Fleet 94) managed to have more that twenty boats participate <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That’s not true. Thirty-two boats, representing eight states, were registered to race in the 1985 National Regatta, but three boats didn’t show up, so twenty-nine C25s actually hit the starting line in that year. I have corrected your misstatement before, but you are still reciting incorrect numbers.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The “National Regattas” have never been “National”.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Have you ever attended a national regatta held by any class of boat? Very few classes of sailboats are able to attract boats to their regattas from coast to coast. It isn’t like the Super Bowl, where all you have to do is transport the players from one coast to the other, and where the money at stake is so big as to provide an incentive to make the effort. It’s a huge task, and very expensive, to trailer a 25 foot sailboat across the country, to launch it and race it in a 2 day regatta, and re-load it and trailer it home, especially when the only incentive is a little trophy. The fact is that very few classes of boats are able to do so. Catalina 22’s have been able to do it, because they are so easily trailerable and they have so many boats on the water. The J24’s have been able to do it for the same reasons, and also because a sailor who scores well in the J24 class can make a national reputation, and possibly get an invitation to crew on bigger, more prestigious international racing boats. Most other classes of boats do as we do, and move their National Regatta to where the sailors are, rather than expecting the sailors to travel far to the National Regatta.

That doesn’t mean that our National Regatta is any the less a “true” National Regatta. I have attended six of our Regattas, and have won two of those Regattas, and have raced against the winners of those Regattas, and can tell you, from personal observation, that the winners of those Regattas are outstanding racers, and would be competitive in any class of racing. If you think it’s so easy to win against the “mediocre” racers who attend our National Regatta, you should race in one, and learn, from actual experience, just how good these winners are.

The fatal flaw in Jim’s proposal is that, in order to win the C25 National Regatta in any given year, a racer would have to transport his boat and crew to two different venues, and race in two separate regattas, instead of just one, as is presently the case. If you don’t race in the “Regional” regatta, you won’t even be eligible to race in the National Regatta. How many C25 owners would be willing to undertake such a daunting effort to win the C25 National Regatta? Remember that, to attend the Regional Regatta, you have to pull your boat from your home lake, prep it to race, tow it several hundred miles, launch it, race it, retrieve it, tow it home, launch it, and then go through that whole process all over again for the National Regatta. Presently, when a racer only has to do this once in a year, we can only get an average of 12 boats. If you have to do it twice in the same year, the effort will be so great, that few will have the initiative to do so.

I should add that, not only would the burden on the racers be greatly increased, the burden on the unpaid volunteer officers of the National Association would also increase greatly, because, instead of organizing one National Regatta every year, they would have to find one local club in each of the eight regions to organize eight events, and then they’d have to find a ninth local club to organize the National Regatta.

I don’t understand how this would increase participation in our National Regatta, and make it a better event.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/25/2009 11:03:30

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2009 : 11:28:21

"Have you ever attended a national regatta held by any class of boat?"

Uh...Yeah.
Thistle Nationals that we had to win our club, then the regionals then went on to a snowy Nationals. Admittedly an easier boat to transport.
The first year the J35 was out we banged into 29 other 35's at the line off Block Island, we followed Dennis Conner as best we could.

I will defer to your history of the assoc. but....
I think regionals could help the local fleets and let more people feel part of the assoc. when the "Nationals" are not close enough to participate in.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2009 : 15:33:57

Regarding Jim's proposal, I pointed out the fact that anyone who wants to compete for the C25/250 National Championship would have to tow his boat to two different regattas in one year, presumably using his vacation leave to attend both of them.

The amount of time and effort involved in preparing a 17 foot, 500 lb. racing dinghy and towing it is not remotely comparable to the amount of time and effort required to tow a C25 and prepare it to race.

What possible incentive could you offer to persuade 12 of our members to make that much of an effort and commitment? If nobody wants to make that much of a committment, then nobody will show up to race in our National Regatta.

When it is presently difficult for our officers to find one club to sponsor and organize one National Regatta per year, at one venue, and, when it is presently difficult to persuade 12 members per year to race in it, how do you propose to organize and present eight separate Regional regattas, and one National Regatta, and how do you propose to persuade 8-12 members to attend one of each?

These are practical concerns that somebody had better address and resolve before we turn our National Regatta into a debacle, where nobody shows up.

So far, nobody has suggested a practical solution to my concerns.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2009 : 16:36:37

"These are practical concerns that somebody had better address and resolve before we turn our National Regatta into a debacle, where nobody shows up."

YIKES Steve.
I don't think anyone is trying to turn the "Nationals" into a "debacle".
Quite honestly the "Nationals" as they stand now ARE regionals.
Why not explore Jim's idea to see if more owners who like to race can get involved each year under the Assoc. umbrella and not have to wait till a "Nationals" comes around to their region?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2009 : 19:19:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
Quite honestly the "Nationals" as they stand now ARE regionals.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That's not true. Every year, our National Regatta is open to any and all competitors who wish to enter. The mere fact that we move it around the country from year-to-year simply makes it more accessible to all our members. In one year, the event might be held in the Midwest. In another year it might be in the west, and in yet another year, it might be held in the Great Lakes. We have to hold the event someplace. Where would you like us to hold it? Would it be any more of a national event if we held it in the geographical center of the US? Should it be in the same place every year? It’s a national event because it is open to any Catalina 25 owner anywhere in the US. If you think it’s not a national event merely because people don’t attend it every year from every State in the Union, you’re wrong. People will always decide whether the effort to attend is worth it to them. No matter where you hold it, some people will decide not to attend. The bottom line is that the event is open to anyone who wants to attend, and it is a true national regatta.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why not explore Jim's idea to see if more owners who like to race can get involved each year under the Assoc. umbrella and not have to wait till a "Nationals" comes around to their region?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have no objection to holding regional regattas, if there’s any interest in it. (I don’t believe there is enough interest in it, but if the officers want to do the work involved to organize eight regional regattas, that’s fine with me. My objection to the idea is in connecting it in any way to the National Regatta. According to Jim’s proposal, the National Championship will be determined by combining each competitor’s score in the regional event with his score in the national event. Thus, participation in a regional regatta is required in order to have a chance to win the National Championship. Anyone who wants to compete for the C25 national championship must drag his boat to two events. If nobody attends the regional regattas, or, if only a few attend only one or two regional events, then we might not have enough boats qualifying for the national event to make it worth having. Suppose only four people attend one regional event, and nobody attends any others. Suppose one boat sailed well in each event, and the other two boats were barely visible on the horizon when the winner crossed the finish line. Will a regatta among those four boats constitute a “true” national regatta? Wouldn’t it be better if we had an open national regatta in which anyone could participate, and determine the winners among an average of twelve participants?

My point is obvious. If participation in a regional event is made a precondition to participation in the national event, then, if the regional events are a failure, the national event will also fail, and I don‘t want to see our national regatta fail because someone was blindly intent on implementing a totally untried idea with a low likelihood of success.

If the hope of winning a national championship isn’t enough incentive to persuade people to drag their boats to one National Regatta, what makes you think participation in the National Regatta will be increased by forcing them to drag their boats to two regattas?

If your common sense isn’t telling you that this is an unworkable idea, then why don’t you poll the members and ask them how many plan to bring their boats to the national regatta this year, and, how many of those would be willing to also bring their boats to a regional event as a precondition to competing in the National Regatta.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/25/2009 19:20:17

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2009 : 19:42:43

The regional event idea is well-intended... The requirement to score points in a regional event to have a chance at Nationals is an approach that large national classes such as J-24s use. But they use it to eliminate the chaff from the wheat and end up with a manageable, competitive national event, such as the 40-50 J-24s I watched in their Nationals a few years ago. We have no chaff! Any prerequisite to winning at our Nationals, other than showing up, would seem to be counterproductive to maximizing participation in the event. And I, for one, was never close enough to one of our national regattas to even crew, much less to enter my boat.

Thinking about it... The C-25 alone is not a one-design boat--it has six configurations (two rigs and three keels). It can be hauled on a trailer, but that's a major undertaking, and many of our best sailors don't even have trailers much less hefty tow vehicles. The C-250 has at least four configurations--the standard and tall wings, standard WB, and even a tall fin (Really! I saw it on the hard in Norwalk, CT). Only the Capri is truly one-design, which is its purpose in life.

So, what about another approach to selecting national champions... some sort of point system where in every sanctioned race, our members can earn points based on PHRF place, weighted somewhat according to the number of boats in the event? There could be a cut-off so points are accumulated for only up to X (20?) races. We could publish the standings all through the season, generating interest and recognition throughout the association. Every member in the country would have a shot. The winners would probably be pretty good approximations of our best racers with the best boats in the association.

But what about the party--the social side...? The biggest association gathering I've heard of in 10 years or so was at a restaurant in Ohio a few years back--in the dead of winter.

OK, the committee boat will stand off now...

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2009 : 21:21:55

I like the ides being thrown around. Reading the different thoughts got me to thinking about something we put together for the Force 5 Class a few years ago. It was called the Grand Prix series. The nature of the event was to allow individuals to compete in a year long event that gaged them on how they finished in their local events or any event they traveled to attend. I could see a modified version of this being developed for our class.

I think it would be good for the class to have a national and regional Grand Prix champions

We have a complete set of rules and guidelines that were completed and I could share that with the group. I would love to help develop a modified version to trial this year for the class.

Keep in mind that we developed this to be a fun event and to acknowledge sailors from around our region for getting out a competing.

I think it would help grow the class. I know that at our lake we have a good amount of sailors who own C25s that would love the idea of seeing how they rank against sailors around the nation without traveling. I don't know of any at our lake that would pull their boat out to attend the NAs.

Hey, it might even get a few more people on the road to the NAs.

Let me know what I can do to help.

Edited by - Chris Z on 02/25/2009 21:22:58

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 14:58:03

I'm a little surprised by the lack of discussion on this... perhaps further evidence that keeping a topic like this out of the General Sailing forum tends to keep it out of sight.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2009 : 20:07:08

One more time... Let's get off the personal commentaries and perceptions of history that predate all but maybe three members. Steve brings up some very practical issues. Generally our members don't tow their boats. Having to tow them to one venue to qualify to tow them to another would seem, by simple logic, to diminish participation rather than enhance it.

If we really want a National Championship that recognizes our best sailors on our best boats, I think we need to let them prove themselves in their own venues, and admit that only a very few will compete in another one. I also think that going in that direction could create some excitement in the association--we could have 25 or 50 racers involved, instead of 8 or 12, and people like "us" could be engaged in the competition much like our far-flung Redwings fans are.

I'd enjoy following what our best are doing, relative to their local competition and thereby, by a little extrapolation, to each other.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/02/2009 21:09:08

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2009 : 20:19:55

My apologies.

I hope the leadership looks at this issue with an open mind.

Edited by - Peregrine on 03/03/2009 07:24:47

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2009 : 21:43:30

I like Dave's idea. However, no matter how well I do against my local competition there is no way I will ever tow TSU to another Nationals - no trailer (and a fixed keel makes the journey a little hairy!) Now if we could only get good participation for a Nationals on Canyon Lake....but it would appear that we are too far South.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2009 : 23:47:19

So how about this? I don't like the idea of crowning a National Champion who trailered his boat to a single event and raced in only one series the whole year. Seems a little unfair to those with fin keels, those without trailers or trucks or those who can't travel. A National Champion who doesn't even know how to fly a spinnaker and takes the crown in a mixed JAM fleet?

Face it, some years we aren't even going to have a "Nationals". Any bidders for 2010?

Lets get more boats out across the Country! Lets get our boats entered in local races! Lets make people respect the lowly Catalina 25.

If you got a local race like for example the Border Run and you think you can get 3 boats at least out of Catalina 25, 250 or Capri 25 petition us to declare it a regional regatta. If we vote to sanction it - Send in your results. We'll score the race PHRF with your local handicaps. We'll score the boats ourselves, and award 5 points for 1st, 3 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd. In the "Nationals" we will award double points (ie. 10, 6 and 2).

To get this thing off the ground I'd like to give all participants a Tee Shirt! And sell them to the crews!

Our local yacht clubs do something similar in big races like Newport - Ensenada, they award a private trophy to the best finisher in the club.

At the end of the year, the person with the highest score is "National Champion".

Now all I need is another 25, the Border Run already has a 25 and a Capri. My arch rival has entered his Catalina 27 (I took 3 seconds to him last season and never beat him).

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 02:10:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 So how about this? I don't like the idea of crowning a National Champion who trailered his boat to a single event and raced in only one series the whole year. Seems a little unfair to those with fin keels, those without trailers or trucks or those who can't travel. A National Champion who doesn't even know how to fly a spinnaker and takes the crown in a mixed JAM fleet?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I trailered my C25 to four National Regattas, and can tell you that I would not have towed my boat to two major regattas in one year in hopes of winning the C25 National Championship. Moreover, Few, if any, of the people I raced against would have towed their boats to two different regattas in one year. It's too much work, and it requires too much use of one's vacation leave, to the exclusion of one's family. (A national regatta isn't really a very good family event. Unless your family is your crew, you don't have time to spend with the family. You're too busy launching and retrieving the boat, tuning the rig, and racing it.)

If you don't have a trailer or truck or can't travel, how does it make it more fair for such person to have to travel twice to race in the National Regatta?

In some years we race JAM, and in other years we race with spinnakers in our National Regatta. In all the National Regattas in which I have raced, there has been no difference in handicaps between boats raced JAM and those raced with spinnakers. Thus, the former had to beat the latter scratch, on an even basis, without handicap. While you might think ill of a National Champion who doesn't know how to fly a spinnaker, I think a guy who can race JAM on an equal basis with spinnaker boats, and who can still beat the guys flying chutes to the finish line, is a very good sailor and has a very well prepped boat. On numerous occasions, I passed spinnaker boats downwind, when I was flying JAM.

Whether or not a competitor races with JAM or with spinnaker is the racer's choice. There is no rule that requires a racer to fly a chute. If a racer chooses to race without one, on an equal handicap, and beats the spinnaker boats, he's allowed to do that.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Face it, some years we aren't even going to have a "Nationals". Any bidders for 2010?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Since 1983, we have only failed to organize a National Regatta in 2 years, and the reason for the failure in those two years was because the officers "fumbled the ball." Organizing a National Regatta can be very complicated or it can be very simple. IMHO, There's no excuse for our officers to fumble that ball.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Lets get more boats out across the Country! Lets get our boats entered in local races! Lets make people respect the lowly Catalina 25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Organizing regional races among 2-3 boats won't make anyone respect the C25s/250s. IMHO, that's a pretty pitiful turnout, but that's about what you can expect at a regional regatta, because C25 sailors aren't all racers, like the J24 for example. We're a mix of racers and cruisers, with the cruisers far outnumbering the racers. If a regional regatta comes to your area, most C25 sailors in the area won't trailer their boats in order to race in it. The participants will generally be the boats that happen to be there.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you got a local race like for example the Border Run and you think you can get 3 boats at least out of Catalina 25, 250 or Capri 25 petition us to declare it a regional regatta.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I have no objection to having regional regattas.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> If we vote to sanction it - Send in your results. We'll score the race PHRF with your local handicaps. We'll score the boats ourselves, and award 5 points for 1st, 3 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd. In the "Nationals" we will award double points (ie. 10, 6 and 2).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> This is my principal concern with the proposal. Scoring the regional event as a part of the National Championship forces every boat that wants to race for the championship to tow their boats to two events, instead of only one. It's hard enough to induce people to bring their boats to one regatta. If we require them to bring it to two regattas in order to compete for the national championship, most people just won't do it. That requirement will kill our national regatta.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Our local yacht clubs do something similar in big races like Newport - Ensenada, they award a private trophy to the best finisher in the club.

At the end of the year, the person with the highest score is "National Champion".<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The format that works for a local club won't work for us. The difference is that, with a local club, the racers are all local. They don't have to trailer their boats long distances, or take vacation leave to do it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 14:05:17

My point-system suggestion was sorta off the top of my head, but I'll expand on it a little...

My objectives are:
1. Get as much participation in the quest for a national champion as possible.
2. Allow the rest of the association to be involved as "spectators".
3. Recognize sailors for their accomplishments, not just against other C-25s, but against as much competition as possible.
4. Give the championship to the best of our sailors--not just to one of a few members who are lucky enough to be in the right place, or are willing and able to haul to that place.
5. Factor in the number of boats beaten--not just the place. Third in a fleet of 30 should be somewhat comparable to first in a fleet of 10. First among three boats shouldn't be particularly noteworthy.
6. Factor in the length of the race, so that points are increased somewhat (not too much) for distance races compared to Wed. night around-the-buoys.

Corresponding to those objectives, the proposal is something like the following (subject to all ideas and suggestions):

A. A scoring system starts with each racer's place in sanctioned (club or otherwise) PHRF (or other recognized handicap) events. For each race, a member would report the number of competitors, the member's place, and the length (NM) of the racecourse.
B. The scoring system would do something like the following:
<ul><li>Award points for any place.</li><li>The larger the fleet, the greater the points for better finishes (The formula starts by giving, in a 12-boat fleet, 12 points for first, 11 for second, etc... in a 30-boat fleet, first would get 30. </li><li>To reduce the advantage of a very large fleet over a much smaller one, calculate something like the square root of that number. (First in a 30-boat fleet would get 5.48 points, third in that fleet would get 5.29, first in a 10-boat fleet would get 3.16 points.) </li><li>That score could be multiplied by something like the fourth root of the number of miles mark-to-mark on the race-course (5 miles gives a 1.22 multiplier, 100 miles gives 1.78).</li><li>Some maximum number of races, such as 20, can contribute to any member's total. This reduces the advantage of year-round sailors over seasonal ones. However, if a member has more than that number, lower scores could be replaced.</li></ul>The "formula" above is purely hypothetical, and needs a lot of work. The idea is to arrive at a formula that rewards members for certain accomplishments the association considers worthy. After each year's championship is awarded, the officers could review the results to determine whether the point system should be revised for the following year--for example, if it's obvious to all (but probably one member) that certain types of races unfairly advantaged one or several members. No system will be perfect, but I submit that it won't be hard to create a system that meets the objectives better than what we have.

During the year, members would report their results. The reporting would be on the honor system... however we could require that the champions (C-25, C-250, and CP-25) provide records from the race organizers (probably mostly one club's season results) to verify the results. Reporting could be on a "National Championship" forum, where members could describe their successes as well as report their three numbers. A "Sticky" on that forum could show the running point totals.

It's different! Take your shots! Make up a better one!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/03/2009 14:06:10

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 15:46:00

I don’t see anything in your proposal that mentions the National Regatta. Is it your suggestion that the event, with it’s 26 year history, be abandoned? Should the Association’s national champion be determined without the racers ever gathering together to race against each other in head-to-head competition? Will the members and the racers be satisfied with a national championship that is awarded on the basis of complex calculations and assumptions, or will they want the racers to meet at a certain time and place, like prize fighters or Super Bowl teams, to settle the matter once and for all? When and how will the National Championship be awarded? Will an engraved certificate be mailed to the winner? If a championship can be settled satisfactorily simply by crunching numbers, then why do the competitors in so many sports ever bother to meet on the field of battle to vie for the title? Speaking as one who has participated in the National Regatta numerous times, I can say that the members who attended and participated in the event, either on their own boats or crewing for others, enjoyed a very memorable experience. I doubt that the same can be said about a national championship that is awarded on the basis of crunched numbers, and in the absence of direct competition.

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 18:27:04

Some posts that were deemed personal attacks were deleted.

No one is being sanctioned or banned.

Please remember to be polite and no name calling.

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 18:52:43

Maybe we leave the Nationls as they are. National Champion is the winner of the National race series pure and simple.

We come up with a way to rank our racers like they do for March Madness (NCAA basketball tournament). Like Dave suggested, it could be based on who you beat, facing the fact that we'll rarely get even 2 Catalina 25's in a race around here. But I may race against and beat Cat 30, Cat 34, Cat 36, Cape Dory 26, and so on. But lose to that darned Cat 27.

We can make available Tee Shirts to all participants.

At the end of the year we can give a pickle dish to the "racers of the year".

Edited by - on

Peregrine
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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 20:30:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Maybe we leave the Nationls as they are. National Champion is the winner of the National race series pure and simple.

We come up with a way to rank our racers like they do for March Madness (NCAA basketball tournament). Like Dave suggested, it could be based on who you beat, facing the fact that we'll rarely get even 2 Catalina 25's in a race around here. But I may race against and beat Cat 30, Cat 34, Cat 36, Cape Dory 26, and so on. But lose to that darned Cat 27.

We can make available Tee Shirts to all participants.

At the end of the year we can give a pickle dish to the "racers of the year".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim,
I would not give up on the idea just yet.
Obviously there is at least one voice that strongly wants the “Nationals” to remain as is.
Maybe there is no reason to upset that apple cart.
But…
I believe you have hit on an idea that has legs.
There are members who love to race and would like to have an Assoc. sanctioned event in their region.
A sailor from Florida cannot/will not attend one of the Lake Erie regattas.
Washington was represented in Kansas but not by any boats.
I believe that having Assoc. Racing events around the country will help reestablish the local fleet community and the local fleets will be the future of the Assoc.

Edited by - on

Chris Z
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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 20:38:57

I would like to hear thoughts on my idea of a Grand Prix Champion and still keep regional and national champions.

I already have a formula worked out that we did that could be utilized.

I don't think it would be in any way perfect. However it would give people something to aim at each season.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 21:02:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I don’t see anything in your proposal that mentions the National Regatta. Is it your suggestion that the event, with it’s 26 year history, be abandoned?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Rather than saying I'm suggesting that, I'll say I'm illustrating a possible alternative. Those who are interested in participating should chose--I'm not one of them. I used to be in the business of figuring out whether a system should be "fixed" or replaced--trying to think outside of the box. Sometimes I just can't stop...<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...If a championship can be settled satisfactorily simply by crunching numbers, then why do the competitors in so many sports ever bother to meet on the field of battle to vie for the title? Speaking as one who has participated in the National Regatta numerous times, I can say that the members who attended and participated in the event, either on their own boats or crewing for others, enjoyed a very memorable experience. I doubt that the same can be said about a national championship that is awarded on the basis of crunched numbers, and in the absence of direct competition.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">"The competitors in so many other sports" travel by everything from Mom's minivan to chartered plane to "meet on the field of battle." Do we? Do our recent National Champions, when showing off their trophies to fellow racers, smile and say that actually they only beat three or four other boats that happened to be there? Yes, it's an alternative--a little like the BCS system in football and the RPI in basketball--it gets everybody into the game. The national championship in college football is mostly determined by "crunching numbers" from competitions where top competitors aren't head-to-head. Yes, they pick two teams and fly them somewhere at the end... What are the odds our best competitors will ever meet on the same pond under any system?

Committee boat out.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/03/2009 21:18:58

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 04:45:04

I think Chris' Grand Prix format sounds good, and would be interested in seeing the organizational information that he has. Likewise, Dave's idea could be merged with Chris’ format to create a good event.

My concern, obviously, is that the existing head-to-head competition for the National Championship continue. While attendance at the event has been meager in the past couple of years, a couple of years doesn't necessarily make a trend. Attendance has been strong over the long run, with one of our largest attendances only a few years ago. It's a good event that generates a lot of interest each year, with some people bringing their boats, and others participating as crew. If declining attendance becomes the norm, we can decide whether to abandon the National Regatta, but I think it's too soon to make that call now. We certainly shouldn't abandon it for an untested idea.

Edited by - on

Chris Z
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Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 06:26:45

Here is the rules we set forth for this type of format. Keep in mind this was done for preset races in the Midwest. We could modify it to fit as needed.

NOTICE OF CIRCUIT
2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit
Invitation
You are cordially invited to participate in the Midwest Grand Prix Circuit (MGPC). The MGPC will provide Midwest Force 5 Sailors that don't have active fleets (the rest of us) with a chance to participate in a series of races throughout Midwest. The MGPC will include regattas in and around the Midwest.
Rules
This series of regattas will be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) 2001-2004 as published by the International Sailing Federation (ISAF), the 2001 - 2004 Prescriptions of US Sailing as published by US Sailing, and this Notice, except as any of these is altered by the Notice of Regatta or the Sailing Instructions for each regatta. The Organizing Committee will resolve all matters not within the jurisdiction of individual Juries (e.g. circuit scoring).
Eligibility
The 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit Circuit is open to all Force 5 Midwest sailors adopted by the US Sailing Association. The MGPC adopts the Corinthian spirit of amateurism with an emphasis on the amateur owner driving his or her own boat.
Schedule
Eight scheduled regattas comprise the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit:

2006 Scheduled Circuit Regattas

Stop # Dates Regatta
1 Feb Force 5 Midwinter Championship
2
3
4 June 24 & 25 Lake Arthur Regatta
5 July 8 & 9 Sam Myer’s Regatta
6 Late July Force 5 North American Championship
7 Mid August Spitzer Cup
8 Sept. Lake Lemon Regatta

Scoring
Final overall standings for the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit will be based on each sailor's final standing in each scored regatta of the circuit using the low point system, 1st place = 1, 2nd = 2, 3rd = 3, 4th = 4, etc. All sailors not officially registered in a regatta of the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit will be assigned points for their finishing place in that regatta as one more than the total number of sailors participating in the Circuit, not the regatta. Please note that this point allocation will change throughout the season as additional sailors join the circuit. All sailors that are officially registered in a scored regatta of the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit, but are scored "Did not come to the starting area" (DNC) in all of the completed races in that regatta will be assigned points for their finishing place in that regatta as one more than the total number of sailors participating in the Circuit.
Still confused? Here is an example:
Today (3/26/05) we have 15 sailors that have signed up and declared their intent to participate. Let's say that for our first regatta 10 of these boats show plus 5 more. By the end of the regatta one of us must approach these new 5 and find out if they intend to participate in the circuit. Let's say that 3 say yes. Therefore at the end of the regatta we would have 18 (15 existing plus 3 new) sailors participating. When we score the regatta we will count the results of the declared circuit racers and not the sailors that don't intend to participate. So if a non-circuit racer gets first and Kyle gets second, we will award Kyle 1 point for the regatta and so on.
No shows get 1 + the total number of racers in the circuit regardless of how many show at the regatta. Therefore if I don't race I get 19 points. This is designed to be super punitive so we don't have a situation where a racer wins the only race he enters and beats out a racer that attended all of the regattas. If I signed up, but could never make it out to the race course and get a DNC in all races, I still get 19 points.
Then at the next regatta 5 more sailors are added. My points for my no-show will increase for the first regatta to always 1 + total number in circuit.
A sailor's final overall circuit score will be the total of its FIVE lowest point standings in all scored regattas of the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit. The sailor with the lowest final overall circuit score wins and others shall be ranked accordingly. If there are fewer than seven scored regattas, a sailor's final overall circuit score will be the total of the number of lowest point standings in all scored regattas of the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit per the following table:
Number of Regattas Number of Lowest Point Standings Used
6 4
5 4
4 3
3 3
2 2
1 1
Ties
When there is a tie in series points between two or more boats, the tie will be broken in favor of the boat with the most first places, or, if the tie remains, the most second places, or lower places if necessary, using only the scores for each boat that count for her series score. When a tie still remains, it will be broken in favor of the boat with the best score in the last race in which the tied boats raced and scored differently, using only the scores for each boat that count for her series score.
Prizes
Awards will be presented to the final overall top five circuit sailors at the final regatta of the year, the Lake Lemon Regatta hosted by Bloomington Sailing Club.
Entry
Sailors are encouraged to sign up on this site as soon as possible to declare their intent to participate. Sailors participating in at least one regatta of the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit will qualify to be included in the final overall circuit standings. Only sailors that have sent in the registration form will be considered members of the circuit and counted in the overall standings.
Cost
None for the 2006 Force 5 Midwest Grand Prix Circuit. We may consider adding costs to cover trophies and prizes in coming years if the circuit is successful.

This will be very casual. The only intent is to get Force 5 racers more involved in racing and give us something to get excited about every summer and fall. And this is an opportunity to win a trophy, what could be better than that?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 09:52:16

Chris's is another interesting variant... It only scores on place (without regard to size of fleet or the other possible factors I mentioned), and they ran it as a one-design contest. But these two suggestions are a lot alike... The main differences in mine are that it's based on PHRF competition (those Wed. night club races would count), and a high place in a big fleet would be worth more than a high place among three boats. (I illustrated a few other factors, but they might make the scoring too mysterious.) I have my doubts about "local fleet" racing... Do we have a local fleet anywhere that can field two or more boats for a real race? In my previous club, we had a "fleet" of four C-25s, and not one of them had any interest in racing except when we just happened to be within sight of each other on the same tack. Thus, the suggestion for the PHRF format.

I think Steve, Chris, and Jim are right--try one of these systems (or something like them) in addition to the current Nationals and have two awards--then see where it goes from there. The only connection I'd suggest would be allowing the Nationals scores to be included as a race... but I wouldn't weight it up to favor those who happened to have a boat at the Nationals venue, or allow other races to influence the scoring at Nationals.

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