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BFTEagles
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/15/2009 : 18:57:23

I was sailing today in a pretty good wind (15 kts? I have no idea) and I was pointing into the wind so that I was still traveling along approximately 3 kts. I was practicing my tacking. I had a vision in my head of tacking quickly across the wind and then having the genoa set on the other side so that I could keep my momentum without falling off my course tremendously. I wanted to be sailing just a few degress off of directly into the wind and then quickly tack and reset a few degress off the wind on the other side. Is this possible or am I just terrible? I couldn't get the genoa set in time and then I would lose the tiller and the boat would end up turning almost 180 degrees and all my speed was lost before I could get back on track. Also, the head sail is so big that it would get wrapped up in the...ummm...standing lines...is that right? If anybody can give me some direction (pardon the pun) I would appreciate it...

1981 Catalina 25 "unnamed"
2006 Key West 2020 cc "unnamed"
1987 Precision 21 "The Jazz"
Old 14ft Jon boat "The Fishnutz"

Beaufort, SC

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 20:09:38

Try practicing with the working jib first and work on your technique. When single-handing with the genoa, I go through the tack and rapidly pull in as much of the sheet as I can before the sail fills. It helps to have only one wrap around the winch at first, then at the last second take another wrap or two. Also, I use vertical clam cleats, not cam cleats. After taking the second and/or third wrap, you can head up and luff the genoa slightly allowing you some slack to haul in more sheet. Then fall off again to your course.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 20:25:53

It takes a little practice to learn to juggle the tiller and line handle, but that's easy enough to master with enough experience, you'll get there. There are also devices you can add to the shrouds (standing lines) that will help the head sail to not get all caught up. One popular method is detailed in several threads, but essentially you thread the front lower and upper shrouds through narrow PVC tubes, w/ end caps, around they act as rollers and the sail just spins around them.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 23:01:33

First, tacking is about speed before and then regaining speed after. You want enough speed going into the tack so your momentum takes you through the wind and waves. Don't pinch as close to the wind as you can just before the tack--that costs you speed.

Next, as you go through the wind, let it backwind your jib for just a moment before you release the jib and pull it to the other side. That helps to push the bow over.

Then, don't try to stop the tack as close to the wind as possible. Fall off a little, set your jib, regain some speed, and then start to point up. The stronger the wind, the more quickly you can point up. It's all about speed--if you lose it, you lose control. If you lose too much, you end up "in irons"--standing still or backing up with your bow pointed into the wind. Or you could get pushed around the 180 degrees you you described. When the boat is standing still, the rudder has no effect on what it does.

If you ever get "into irons" (standing still, bow to wind, sails luffing), try pushing the boom over to what you want to become the windward side, and reversing the rudder (tiller opposite to the boom) so the boat begins backing up and swings around so it's pointed in the direction you want to go. Then release the boom so the sail sets normally on the leeward side, turn away from the wind a little, and the boat starts forward on the new tack. That's an old trick I figured out on the sailfish I built when I was about 12 years old, about 52 years ago!

So, don't pinch up immediately before or after the tack. Speed gives you momentum and control.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/15/2009 23:16:34

BFTEagles
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 20:20:48

Thanks for all the comments. Went back out today and had a beautiful afternoon of sailing. I tried to keep my speed up and we actually had a few turns where we didn't come to a complete stop. I'm still struggling with the size of the genoa I guess. It loves to wrap up in the shrouds and we almost always ended up turning around 180 degrees. The videos I see online of tacks show such a smooth turn without hardly any speed loss and I never see the crew scrambling around like we do. The sails pop into place so quickly and neatly. I've got a lot of work to do I guess.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 20:58:21

Bryan,

The closest you can sail to the actual wind direction (at a good constant speed) is about 45 degrees, although when moving forward your direction towards the "apparent wind" direction is a lot closer.

So when you tack, you move approximately around a curve that defines approximately a 90 degree angle (to the land).

This idea of the "apparent wind" might help you understand a lot about tackng your boat. Theoretically, the boat motion vector adds to the wind motion vector to give you the resultant apparent wind vector, of strength and direction. You see on your wind indicator only the apparent wind direction, so you have to figure in the other factors to figure the true wind. Here's a diagram that may help you visualize this:

If you try to tack through 90 degrees (relative to the land) you'll be likely to have more success. The other comments above add to this basic idea about tacking.

Have fun, and let us know how it's going.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 22:39:25

Yup--if your jib/genny gets hung up on a shroud and stays there, you'll get pushed around pretty badly. When the jib is "backwinded", it's working against your forward progress and steering control.

How are your jib sheets attached to the jib clew? The knot (or whatever) is what catches. A ready boat-hook can help free the snag. The "rollers" Jerry describes can help prevent that--if you're in a marina, walk around and you might see them on some sailboats. Something like 1-1/2" PVC pipe can do it--check which specific shroud the sheet tends to catch on. If you use our Search function to look for "cow hitch" in these forums, you'll find several threads on different ways to attach the sheets--mostly discussing how to keep this from happening. There's no absolute solution, but they might be helpful.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/16/2009 22:41:36

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 22:50:13

It also helps to think of tacking as a time-management problem. You have a certain number of actions that you have to take within a limited amount of time. You have to put the helm over, release the working jibsheet, stop the turn, wrap the jibsheet on the other winch, haul in about 40 feet of jibsheet on the new side, trim it and cleat it. You might also have to reset the main sheet traveler and trim the mainsheet. You'll have about 7 seconds to get all that done. Regardless of whether you are singlehanding or have a full crew, you still will only have about 7 seconds to get it all done. The only way you can do it is to think through each step in the process, choreograph every move, and practice it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 22:58:55

One more thing: When you push the tiller over to tack, don't push it as far as it will go. Pushing it past 45 degrees actually reduces the turning efficiency, increases drag, and slows the boat.

Finally (?) I'll suggest you try disregarding my suggestion to backwind the jib for a moment to push the bow across the wind... that increases the chances of catching on a shroud. After you start your turn, and just as the jib starts to luff, release the sheet and start pulling the sail across with the opposite sheet so it clears the shrouds while luffing, which can shake the knot loose from a shroud if it does catch. Don't pull too fast--you want it to be luffing until you're through the wind and on the opposite tack.

Keep trying--you'll get it!

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 09:40:57

Bryan,

You said first that you were beating to windward and wanted to stay close to the wind on the opposite tack.

So here are more diagrams for you. That schematic I found on the internet yesterday had an error. It didn't show the wind produced by the boat's speed, it just showed the arrow for the speed of the boat. So I re-labeled the wind arrows in the diagram so they make more sense, 1, 2, 3.

Below is a diagram that shows how a boat actually tacks through an angle of 90 degrees. So although you might think you are sailing close to the angle of the "true wind", you are actually sailing close to the "apparent wind".

I look straight off the beam (90 degrees) and choose a landmark to show me where I'm gonna go next, then turn the bow there and pull in the sheet on that side.

If you are sailing offshore in SC, and there are no landmarks to easily guide you through a 90 degree turn, you could use your compass or GPS, and add or subtract 90 degrees from your current heading, or else just use West to North, or Northwest to Northeast, etc.

So if you like diagrams, like I do, these may help you to undertand wind and boats a little better.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 10:22:41

One other piece of advice, okay two pieces: Find someone to go sailing with you who can show you how to tack the boat efficiently, and get involved with a local sailing club. Also, as mentioned above, a 1.5" piece of PVC pipe, about 4-5 ft. long on each forward lower shroud makes an excellent, inexpensive roller to help the sail around.

Edited by - on

BFTEagles
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 10:52:32

Thanks for the many comments and diagrams. On my most recent trip out, I had much less of problem with the sail getting caught in the shrouds. I think my timing of releasing it was improving. I wasn't single handing the boat, as my brother was along with me and he was at the helm so I could work the sheets. Now that I think of it, we were really shoving the tiller over pretty hard, and maybe taking it a little easier might improve our speed.

The first thing I am going to do is take in some of that "genny" so that I am not dealing with so much sail. Baby steps, you know? I also like the idea of choosing a point off the beam at 90 degrees and trying to hit that mark with my tack. I've seen someone on Youtube describing that exact same technique.

Edited by - on

BFTEagles
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 10:55:12

Yeah, I will definitely be taking out some sailing friends of mine to help me hone my skills. I was just trying to get some practice in this weekend on my own.

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BFTEagles
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 11:17:35

Here's a nice tack. Look how both sails fill with wind at almost the same moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbxzLN1MliY

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 13:47:10

That YouTube boat has the advantage jib sheets inside the shrouds. No way to hang it up. You don't really have that option.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/17/2009 13:48:05

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 17:57:03

I just have to add: 90 degrees is, excuse me, just NUTS! I can think of very few boats that can do that and most of them start with a "J", so don't think you can do that unless you have absolutely perfect brand new flat sails. Our former 1981 C25 and our 1986 C34 share the same Catalina underbody. We try for 120 degrees and can sometimes make 100 or 110 degrees. 90 is simply out of the question. If you are trying to do that, perhaps that's why you're having so much trouble. It's unattainable on our boats. Try to follow some other sailboats, maybe even a racing fleet, and see how they, and you, do. The only guys who can point higher in our C34 racing fleet are the die hard racers, who have the sails and equipment (i.e., inboard jib sheet tracks) to do so. They outpoint me maybe 5 to 10 degrees. It doesn't sound like much, but on a long upwind course it makes a heck of a difference in VMG.

Even if you have land around, as suggested, use your compass, it's a lot more accurate and you'll learn to depend on it. A GPS will work, but the time delay, even if only five seconds (given the very good 7 second post above) will make too much of a difference.

You should also have telltales on your jib. If you don't, let us know and we'll find the links to show you how to install and use them. Without them, you're essentially sailing blind. Not good, huh?

BTW, we've almost all "been there, done that" so don't feel too bad, you'll get there.

Sounds like you're out there practicing. Only way I know to learn. Besides, what a great excuse to use your boat more!

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/17/2009 18:00:43

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 18:16:22

Holy mackerel Stu! If we made a tack of over 90 degrees I'd get "the look" from my crew and "nice tack, good job we're not racing!".

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 18:25:42

You're not a bad tacker, this is a bad tacker:

Oooops.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 18:29:58

You're right, John, and then the guy had the nerve to sail off around Angel Island. They finally found him and he fessed up. Blamed fluky winds -- like Maltese Falcon didn't get in the wind's way! Real dummy...

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 18:55:41

Odd, but I have no problem tacking through 90º. My CMG may not be 90º, but my heading, or angle through the wind will be. I just did that sailing on the genoa alone to answer somebody else's question, but I didn't have a gps with me and the wind kept me too busy to plot for a CMG and leeway. I guess one must set a definition of tacking as either compass heading through apparent wind, as I do, or CMG, which I consider a chart correction. Apples to apples

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 12:08:57

Stu,

You're right, but IMHO a "90 degree tack" is a more practical first approximation than tacking from a few degrees off the wind to port around to a few degrees off the wind to starboard.

Now, here are some data - - - a chart showing an average bunch of tacks on my way home a while back. I estimated the angles with a paper compass rose:

If you squint, they're right angles.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 15:13:10

Pretty good record, JohnP. What should also be taken into account on those angles (all of which, BTW, are larger than 90 degrees) are wind shifts which create lifts or headers, so the (big) 125 and (tight) 105 & 108 angles could well be affected by headers and lifts.

90 ? - still, no way.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 17:08:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 ...but IMHO a "90 degree tack" is a more practical first approximation than tacking from a few degrees off the wind to port around to a few degrees off the wind to starboard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree--that's where you can expect to point the boat. John's track suggests that when you point it that way, it's not necessarily where you're going to actually sail (due to leeway), and there's the issue of current... Basically, you can tack through 90, but if you expect to clear the leeward point that you sighted up at 90, you'll probably be disappointed.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 18:01:23

1. Yes, current can make a difference, but...
2. Yes, leeway can make a difference, but...

But NEITHER of them have any affect on the angle at the point of the tack. They ONLY affect the direction of the course over ground once the boat is sailing along that course.

If the angles measured are based NOT on the long courses to and from the point of the tack, but right AT where the tack occurred, then the angles are right.

For instance, we don't know if there was any current in the pass that the boat was sailing through in the chart. Could have been zero, like a lake, or could have been heavy, which would be a compliment to the headers and lifts I mentioned earlier.

90 ? === still no way.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/18/2009 18:03:59

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 18:49:36

I just pulled up some tracks of my gps from a few days ago and measured CMGs. I was right in the ballpark with John: outliers were tidal current assisted 93º and 95º, tidal current opposed 113º and 116º, the open water CMGs all fell in a 100º to 105º range. I stand by my observation that Pearl will comfortably tack through 90º headings. And, as usual, Dave Bristle summarized it well.

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 21:13:35

VMG? CMG?

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