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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 21:23:18

I think we're all in agreement, except Derek...

I dunno, Derek--maybe it's your fancy sails and mirror-finished bottom. I'd be curious to see what your GPS says your courses are before and after--I suspect it's a little different from your compass and what your crew sees sighting up the bow. Do you ever have trouble holding a long starboard layline when tacking inside 90 degrees?

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 01:28:25

VMG - velocity made good (your velocity towards a given waypoint; when the VMG = your boat speed you're heading right for it' when it's less, you're not, as when you're tacking upwind to a particular waypoint)

CMG - course made good (record of your actual course compared to compass course; i.e., most usually leeway or opposing current)

Edited by - on

BFTEagles
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 07:54:08

Well, I sure am learning a lot! That snow and ice up there in the north better melt off quick!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 09:39:02

Dave, I can't help you on that one. I don't have a GPS being strictly an "eyes & ears" type sailor.
I would suspect that an overly large main (still within class rules) and a hi-tech genoa make a big difference. It would be interesting to ask Gary Shepherd what his tacking angle is.
One facet of the fixed keel is that it develops more leeway than the swing - so we avoid long laylines like the plague!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 10:00:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 ...One facet of the fixed keel is that it develops more leeway than the swing - so we avoid long laylines like the plague!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My point, precisely.

When we talk about sighting something up at 90 degrees, we're saying you can point the boat at it, but you'll end up to leeward of it because your course over the bottom will be some 7-10 degrees lower than the heading where the boat is pointed. So if you really want to make it around that point or navaid, you'd better wait till it's at least 110 degrees from your present heading (which is itself higher than your actual present course) before you tack. Then point up as if you were tacking 90 degrees, and you might make it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/19/2009 10:58:06

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 10:33:50

I'll throw my 2 cents in for what its worth.

I use 90 degrees as a very rough estimate.... the only time I use it is when trying to make a racing mark when I'm anticipating some lift off the lay line. If I'm leading...I never use it. I've shot myself in the foot to many times trying to pinch to the mark and usually end up making 2 extra tacks

. The rest of the time 90/100 or whatever deg. doesn't matter. The headsail will tell you when to stop your turn. In most cases, the beach, a header, or another boat is the reason to tack so deg off the beam irrelevant. There are many variables in determining how close to the wind you can sail, from sail condition and design (where the draft is on a given sail) to boat trim, and even the boat keel type...wing keel C25's don't point as high as fins and swings, for instance.

Technique wise, remember that our boats don't accelerate very well. They require very smooth movement on the tiller. Think only about maintaining momentum and concentrate on the headsail throughout the whole turn. It will show your new course. It's like pulling g's in an airplane. When you turn your gonna bleed off boat speed. The sharper you turn, the more momentum (speed) you'll lose. so I like to slowly stop the turn a few degrees off close hauled, let the boat accelerate and then smoothly steer back up to your close hauled trim.

The turn rate is directly proportional to wind speed. It's gonna really vary. The harder its blowing, the more you can load up the turn because the boat will recover much quicker. Be super smooth in light air. I just try to maintain as much momentum as possible through the tack. It takes practice but its really a simple concept.

Crew is important too. I like to trim the headsail about 3" off the spreader close hauled. If they can crank that headsail to about 6" by the time you've stopped your turn, let the boat accelerate then bring the headsail to 3" and steer to your telltales, you got a good tack.

That's for your consideration...it works for me.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 06:44:24

I agree with Derek that the tacking angle of a C25 is about 90 degrees, but that doesn't mean that the boat's course on starboard tack will be 90 degrees from its course on port tack. When the boat is closehauled on port tack, it is also drifting to leeward by an estimated 5 degrees. (It might be more than 5 deg., if the boat's bottom is foul, or the sails aren't well trimmed, or if the boat isn't being well-steered.) When the boat tacks, it has not only turned through 90 degrees, but now it's drifting an additional 5 degrees to starboard. Therefore, the difference between the course made good of a well-prepared, well-trimmed, well-steered C25 on opposite tacks will be about 100 degrees. If you don't use premium, racing antifouling paint, and don't scrub the bottom every time you sail, and don't use the largest high-tech sails that are legal, and aren't anal about rig tuning and sail trim and helmsmanship, your experience will vary considerably. For that reason, everyone has to estimate his personal course made good after tacking, based on all those factors. Derek's estimate for his boat works for him, but it won't work for others.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 12:42:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...Derek's estimate for his boat works for him, but it won't work for others.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and he admits it doesn't really work. He knows he can't use 90 degrees to establish a long layline and make the mark. He'd rather add a couple of tacks than get the evil eye from his crew for sailing outside of some J-24's layline.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 14:13:40

Dave - the reason we avoid a long layline is that we have to deal with shifty winds. Tacking onto a long layline is like a forward pass in football, 3 things can happen and 2 of them are bad! If you get headed you have to make 2 tacks to get back on track. If you get lifted you sail too much water. We endeavor to tack onto the layline no more than 4 or 5 boatlengths from the mark. Folks in other places (like Lake Cheney) where the wind blows steadily don't have this problem.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 16:06:22

Sounds good to me, Derek... Having mostly raced on bigger boats on Long Island Sound, in a C-25 I'd be worried that each tack in our chop would be a penalty stroke, knocking off too much speed. But I didn't have a setup like TSU... Currents add to the fun, but at least they're steady in speed and direction (away from points and shoals).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/21/2009 16:07:10

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 00:48:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]Folks in other places (like Lake Cheney) where the wind blows steadily don't have this problem.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have what most would call pretty consistent winds here on SF Bay during the summer afternoons. I agree in principle, but would add the "cone" of tacks, discussed, first time I read about it, was in Erick Hiscock's "Voyaging Under Sail." It takes into account the concept of having the tack within IIRC a 20 degree zone of each side of the layline (assuming the wind directly is from the waypoint) to make the most efficient VMG. He adds that the most efficient is to tack to GET to that point (wind dead ahead) and then use that. So, in addition to considerations of lifts and headers and race course strategies, steady winds may not have everything (or anything?) to do with the choice of places to tack.

If you use a GPS, you can start tacking when the VMG goes to zero, which will require more tacks the closer you get to the waypoint. Same concept, different explanation.

One other thing: I used to tell The Admiral that the winds here were very consistent. Then she pointed out how it gusted by changing even a little bit. I didn't notice it when I had the helm, but she pointed it out me when she did. You all let The Admiral steer at least 50% of the time, don't you? How else to keep harmony... Anyway, then I started racing and finally understood what she meant! So even our consistent winds provide LOTS of lifts and headers. For instance, there's a well known one off Pt. Blount, the SE corner of Angel Island. If you head NW from a Berkeley Pier start to the main bay, you can hold a port tack to the NW; when you start to get headed, tack to starboard and carry the lift into the main bay, because the west winds curl to the southwest as they come around Pt. Blount. Not giving away local knowledge, since it's in the best sailing book about the bay ever written, called, aptly enough, "Sailing The Bay," by Kimball Livingston.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/22/2009 00:55:27

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 09:41:16

Good point Stu. On Canyon Lake we get consistent headers and lifts from the topography around the lake (lots of hills and valleys) which change depending upon the wind direction.
In addition we deal with unexpected changes, usually in the middle of the lake - I once went from port tack to starboard without changing my heading! I've been close-hauled on port tack 10 yards behind a close-hauled starboard tack boat on the same heading .
It's a challenging venue and we learn to deal with it - local knowledge is a wonderful thing!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 14:00:09

I crewed in a match race where we let the other guy go off to a "strange place"--we were a little behind, and surprised they weren't covering while we were looking for a lift... Well, that strange place was a dead-spot in an otherwise opposing current, apparently due to some rocks. A one-boat-length deficit suddenly became more like 10. All we could do was salute. It's a lot like those topographic wind shifts--important local knowledge. Where I live now, the currents and eddies can be twice as tricky!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/22/2009 14:03:41

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