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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

A survey

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/18/2009 : 00:34:00

All you "salty seas" 250-ers, an important survey:

Give me your three top reasons for owning and sailing a 250, especially from any of you who could well afford a bigger boat:

The reason for the survey: to convince me I should stay with PRETTY PENNY and not hunger to move up to a 1984 C-30 I can get for an even trade.

Based on responses below, the primary reason for having a 250 is its trailerability and ease of maintenance. I neglected to mention our sailing routine: day sailing once or twice a week in local waters, and two overnight trips to Catalina Island during the summer. Period. So that doesn't require a larger boat. The only real advantage of a C-30 is standing head room; a trade-off for more and expensive maintenance, especially in a 25 year old boat.

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - AADIVER on 02/18/2009 12:02:19

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 04:45:33

That's a toughy!
'Even Trade'
We keep JD on a trailer at the side of the house between sailing trips, a C30 would mean we would need a slip.
1) No need for a slip

'Even Trade'
We sail in south florida, lots of stop signs in the waters around here
2) Shallow draft extends sailing venues in south florida

'Even Trade'
1984 .. outside of the admirals 'old boat' comfort zone
3) Affordable new!

But if I had the chance of an even trade, we would be really stressed to not get the bigger boat, we would keep it out back of someones home on the waters edge in broward, we would get to use it more often (no need for setup and takedown every trip) and we would have to deal with the 'keeping boat in the water' issues, like bottom painting etc.

Toughy!

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 05:18:46

I think it's purely a question of whether the two boats have approximately equal values, and whether the C30 is in sound condition. If it was me, I wouldn't make the trade if the C30 is in poor condition. If the C30 is a nice one, then does the C30 have approximately the same market value as the C30? If your boat is worth substantially more, then you could sell it and buy a C30 outright, and have money left over.

The C30 will be more expensive to own and maintain, but I'm doing it on a retirement income, so it isn't prohibitively expensive, but I do most of my own maintenance. If you hire it done, it's obviously more expensive.

The C30 will also require more skill to operate, especially singlehanded. I learned to do it, and you can too, but, there will be a new learning curve.

The C30 is generally a very nice boat, and most people who own one, love it.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 07:02:46

#1 Trailerability is prime. Paul nails it straight away. The 250 was designed to be a trailerable and has subsequently found some market as a small slipped or moored boat. If one doesn't own a trailer and has no plans to trailer then the prime reason for owning a 250 doesn't exist thus opening the door for a host of other priorities such as standing head room.

#2 The 250 is a clorox bottle boat. It is designed for lightness and low maintenance with no exterior brightwork and a sparse interior. If these are not priorities then no reason exist not to have a more traditional boat in both appearance and manners.

#3 The 250 is a small boat that enters the world of big boat feel. Thus, it exist on the periphery of both zones... but is unsuitable in any great measure for either. It was designed for those who need some of both worlds.

If my memory is correct, you slip year round and don't own a trailer and thus the small boat side of the 250 is of little or no value. I think you are very correct to feel not married to her as the prime reasons for owning a 250 don't exist for you.

Further, you also seem to enjoy tinkering with your boat and thus might embrace the brightwork and maintenance issues of a traditional design. I suspect there are hundreds of C25 owners for example that wouldn't trade a C25 worth $15k for a 250 worth $30k because the C25 embraces the traditional and the 250 doesn't.

I don't embrace rap music. In fact it disgust me personally. But... I realize there are some who dig it and in fact might worship it. I chose and love my 250 because it was designed for me. My goal was to trailer cruise the Great Lakes from where I live in East Texas. I had no desire to continue to day sail and if I had, would have done so on a day sailor like a cat or skiff. I've also no desire for my boat to be my second home.

What I needed was a boat that I could haul to the Great Lakes with a standard pickup truck, was capable of handling their sailing conditions and provide a months worth of reasonable accommodations for coastal cruising for two people. A boat that would gunk hole, that could be launched at a fishing boat ramp, a boat that would ride the nasty swell of Great Lakes chop in comfort and a boat that wouldn't hammer the center board trunk to shreds in that chop or see the outboard spinning its prop a third of the time when handling the chop, a boat that would safely make 100 mile Great Lake crossings.

What I needed was a boat that I could park and let set the other eleven months of the year and not do brightwork, and let me go fly model airplanes.

I've reasons to love my 250... passionately. I don't think you do and that is not a negative reflection whatsoever... it is simply a matter of the 250 being designed for my needs, not yours.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 09:47:17

It's funny, we bought SL for a number of the reasons the other guys have listed, trailerability, easy maintenance, tinkerability, etc. We almost never use the trailer any more since we've found a marina to keep her in, I've done most of the tinkering I'd planned (or not planned as the case may be), and maintenance, well, that's mostly hosing it down to keep the cement dust from the two plants nearby off, at least from a week to week standpoint.

I dream of larger, bluewater boats constantly and see suitable boats in the 35-45' range at least once a month that would let me scratch that itch. However, we don't have anywhere to keep such a beast, and as noted, the costs go up dramatically. I'm looking for a boat to retire onto, Rita's not convinced it's such a good idea.

If nothing else Frank, you've got a great name for your C-30 already: "Even Trade".

Keep us posted.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 09:50:29

Check the market (blue-book, not ads)... If it's an "even trade" in your favor, great. If it's not (within whatever $$ you're willing to give up for the convenience), then negotiate to even it up. Not having to sell your boat might be worth a little...

Then get a survey (the professional kind

) and go with your gut! You only go around once.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/18/2009 09:52:44

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 10:50:52

Size is my primary point. My 32 was too big to handle alone as I am getting older, the 27 that the hurricane took away was ok but the 250 is a better value for me (same price, newer boat). No underwater hardware, outboard simplicity and I am comfortable sailing and docking by myself. My boat sits at my dock most of the time and is eye candy from the lanai. Trips in the boat are usually 4 to 6 hours rather than the multi-day trips with the 32 when I was in my 50s. This will likely be my last boat.
Don't get me wrong, I still long for the bigger boat days but it just isn't practical for me as age related issues increase. I suggest when you are younger than 70 that you go for the most boat you can afford and build in a plan to downsize as you get older.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 12:15:40

Withholding us from a "dream 30-38ft", boat time and time again is the versatility, playfulness and economy of the C250 WB...

1) Don't consider it a liability having the boat stored, at little or no cost, for a good portion of the year

2) Drop and play anywhere, anytime on this continent with acceptable comfort levels for 2 people (if so desired follow the sun for year-round sailing and RV'ing)

3) Time and means to do other things... travel & explore non boating activities in other places & continents without a nagging "cost', feeling

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 13:52:44

For me it came down to a question of practicality: Would I really use a larger boat all that much more and was I willing to accept the additional costs?

Persephone is cheaper to operate, maintain, and insure. Simpler systems, less to go wrong, and when it does, less expensive to fix. Less money tied up in the boat. Given the stage I am in life and work, I am pretty much limited to sailing on the weekends, with an occasional multiple day cruise. I wanted a new boat for a change, but given the way I get to sail I couldn't see plunking down 2x to 2.5x times for something that would sit tied to the pier 4 or 5 days out of 7. Spending less up front also allowed me to add other things to equip her like I want and actually spend more time sailing than tinkering or undoing what someone else was the "PERFECT" way of setting things up .

Basically its only me as the crew. I really don't need any more space. I have more living and storage space to myself on Persephone than the submarines I served on. Standing headroom would be nice, but at what price? And would I REALLY use that extra space? I spend more time in the cockpit than I do below.

I would probably feel differently if my wife liked to sail. She doesn't, so by going with a smaller boat, it frees up capital that we can use for her to do things that either she likes to do alone, or we can do together.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 15:12:10

Well, I think that the trailerability thing really doesn't apply to the wing keel version as it does to the water ballast. Sure, mine's on a trailer but it takes considerably more work to launch. The WK can be transported to a new sailing venue on it's trailer but to think of it as a trailer-sailer really doesn't apply to Frank's wing keel version. Besides, Frank's boat is in a slip. Paul's ideas about shallow water sailing are spot on but, also for the water ballasted, centerboard up option. Not in play as much with the wing. Admittedly, the wing draws less than 4'.

The big issue for me is the systems involved. Probably the biggest one is the motor. Worst case: if my outboard dies, I can replace it for around $2k or less. If the inboard on the C30 dies, $8-10k to replace. I have a tiller as does Frank. The wheel has more maintenance issues. ...pressurized water??, refrigeration? A/C?? My boat (and Frank's) really have ZERO systems that require any great worry. It's a plastic bucket with an aluminum stick.

I think that frequency of use is inversely proportionate to the size. The bigger the boat, the more it will stay in the slip and not be sailed. Finally, as we mature, our physical limitations sometimes drive the decisions. I've visited Frank's website and doubt that this is an issue but it's worth considering. Then there's costs like new sails. C30 sails just cost more than C250 sails, etc. Lines are longer so they cost more. etc. etc. ad nauseum

Having said all that, I agree with Dave. Check to see if it is really even then:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> go with your gut! You only go around once.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 15:47:36

When we bought our C34 we promised to destroy that myth that the amount of time a sailboat gets used is inversely proportional to its length. Until I broke my leg skiing last month, we've been very successful at that! Since 1998. I single hand the boat a lot and learned to dock and maneuver it, so size is not an issue. I have friends who do it with a C42! The key is learning how to work and use NautiDuck's midship spring line concept. So, size should not be an issue in and by itself.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/18/2009 15:49:50

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 15:51:29

Thank all of you for your precise and professional responses to my survey request. Having digested them thoroughly I've come to a decision: I'm staying with PRETTY PENNY. Yeah, I'm in good physical shape for 76, but the element that finalized my decision was singlehanding. It's relatively easy with a 250, not so with a 30. I still would like standing headroom and greater stability, but any boat is a compromise. 250's aren't little boats and they're not big boats. They're 'tweenies. Hey, how's that for a 250 name: TWEENIE?
Thanks again.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 16:06:57

Frank, you and I are kindred spirits. I re-visit this question periodically too. The single-handing issue is always the stopper for me. Even with the Admiral and mates aboard, I'm basically a singlehander. I think you're right but, properly rigged, the C30 could probably be readily sailed alone. I know that the Admiral would enjoy the significant increase in comfort the larger boat provides.

BTW, I like TWEENIE.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 16:20:15

Seems like the overall common theme is the standing headroom problem. Apart from the lack of headroom my C250WB suffers I just love my boat. It is equipped like much larger boats, has a large boat cockpit and easy to handle. For me the ideal would be standing room and a shower. But then the boat would be too tall and look like a Mac26M.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/18/2009 16:23:09

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 16:29:13

I forgot to mention that I love the standing headroom on my C250! Guess it just depends on how high your head is.

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 16:47:23

I looked for TWEENIE on the boat names website:
http://www2.10000boatnames.com/index.php?option=com_displayltr&Itemid=104
Not there, but because of my suggestion, someone's gonna go for it

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 17:04:11

Too late Frank. I just renamed my boat Tweenie. ;-)

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 17:05:12

Top 3 reason:

1-Even our wing keel is easy to trailer to the San Juans and prime cruising territory.

2-The C250 is new and doesn't require lots of maintenance. Teak is pretty - on someone else's boat. I want to sail, not do wood working.

3-C250 Captains are studs - or so the Admiral says.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/18/2009 17:05:36

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 17:22:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 ...Now please knock if off and get these thoughts of big boats out of your mind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Never!! Life's a journey!

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 17:46:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
Never!! Life's a journey!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dave, you are so right. Life is a journey, a journey of dreaming. I do so every time you make a post to check out some fantastic new large yacht. And I always take a journey of sailing it.
You knock that off too!

Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 02/18/2009 18:05:15

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 20:17:21

Frank, have you considered renting a C30 or other larger boat for one of your Catalina cruises? That would help you and your wife see if the bigger boat made sense for you. If nothing else, it would be a fun change and perhaps you could stay out a little longer.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 20:29:41

I read somewhere recently you never see a sailboat parked in front of a psychiatrist's office.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 20:35:10

You could always go for an '89-'90 C25. Still easy to singlehand and you more or less get standing headroom. Maintenance shouldn't be that much more than the C250 and way less than the C30.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 21:41:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 You could always go for an '89-'90 C25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There you go! Manageable, still an outboard, and with a nicer ride in the ocean. I suspect it also sails better on genny alone (with the mast further aft), for really relaxed sailing in blustery conditions. I think the headroom is at least 5'10" before the pop-top goes up (making a shaded but open-air 6'5").

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2009 : 22:00:59

Hey Frank - I've sailed lots on a C30 and also on a C25 and C250.

I love the C30 and wish I had one. However I am not trading up for the following reasons:

(1) total cost of ownership is 1/2 on the 25 footer
(2) The C30 can seat 6 to 8 but I'm usually alone
(3) The C25/250 can go anywhere a C30 can go
(4) More C30s are raced but they are still a fat slug.
(5) Far more physical labor to sail - reefing, flaking the main, flaking jibs not nearly so easy (even rolling the jib in a blow).
(6) how much $ have I saved dropping the mast in the slip? (see 1).
(7) Far more physical labor to maintain (try waxing the hull).

You may argue point (1) but I'll stand by it. Sails, bottom paint, repowers, polish, cordage, new rigging, slip, haulout, bottom cleaning, diesel service at the slip, moorage at Catalina, ....

Now Cat 27 or 270 that is another question.

Besides I'd buy an Olson 30 or J27 - 30!

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 10:44:47

"Besides I'd buy an Olson 30 or J27 - 30!"

Why?

Edited by - on

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