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kbq
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/20/2009 : 10:23:54

Looking for advice...

Have an 8hp Honda, recent vintage. Hadn't run it over the winter, and now it won't start. Turns over just fine; I get gas to the carb bowl. Haven't checked the spark yet, but thought electronic ignition would be reliable (perhaps not...).

Should I try some ether in the air cleaner? Play with the ignition? Any good guides online?

Suggestions welcomed! Gonna be working on it this weekend.

Kevin
wait for me
250wk

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 10:49:15

I would try the ether first.

Make sure kill lanyard is connected.

Pull the plug and spray some ether in the hole. See if it fires then. If it doesn't replace the plug.

You can get an in-line spark checker at Harbor Freight for pretty cheap to see if it is actually getting electricity.

You did use new gas, right?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 10:55:14

Depending on how you stored it for the winter, the first suspect might be the carburetor. Did you stabilize the gas? Did you run it dry? (You should do one or the other--preferably the first according to mechanics these days.) A little spray of starter fluid (ether) into the air intake could un-gum the jets enough to get fuel flowing. I'd try that route before worrying about the ignition, which is less likely to change due to storage.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/20/2009 10:56:14

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 11:07:42

This might sound like a stupid suggestion, but is the choke working? My new Tohatsu pretty much won't start when it's cold unless it's choked. It'll turn over all day long, but won't even sputter until I choke it. Then it'll start immediately.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 11:59:09

Oh, those pesky instruction manuals!

How do I know...

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 12:30:50

Kevin, Pull the spark plugs, if there wet it kind of tells you fuel is getting to the combustion chamber, if they are dry it tells you that fuel is probably not getting that far. Also that bowl on the bottom of the carbureator is removable and easy to clean and remove any bad sediment........

Edited by - on

danandlu
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 13:26:21

You probably already have..... make sure the safety lanyard is attached.

Edited by - on

kbq
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 13:51:01

Some good suggestions, guys. Thanks!

I did *not* run the bowl dry, as most winters we go sailing. Didn't this year, and it's *quite* possible things got gummed up. Any good additives to help un-gum?

I'll try pulling the plugs to see if they're wet, and I'll try the ether.

And yeah, it's in neutral and the lanyard is attached. What I've *not* done, though, is to check the continuity of the kill switch. Another good thing to check.

Kevin
wait for me
250 wk

Edited by - kbq on 02/20/2009 13:52:19

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 16:11:32

OK, in that case it sounds like old gas and gummed carb. I've fought with these things a few times before and there's only one thing to do. Take the carb off the engine and completely apart, use carb cleaner on the surfaces and blow compressed air through every orifice you can find. Sometimes these outlets are quite small but hit'em anyway. Be careful of the jet cylinder, some of them have a removable seat that you can accidentally blow out and loose. I'd recommend getting the appropriate rebuild kit (they're cheap) too. Also take the kill switch lanyard off and actuate the kill switch several times to penetrate any build up that may be preventing a good connection.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 08:35:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 OK, in that case it sounds like old gas and gummed carb. I've fought with these things a few times before and there's only one thing to do. Take the carb off the engine and completely apart, use carb cleaner on the surfaces and blow compressed air through every orifice you can find. Sometimes these outlets are quite small but hit'em anyway. Be careful of the jet cylinder, some of them have a removable seat that you can accidentally blow out and loose. I'd recommend getting the appropriate rebuild kit (they're cheap) too. Also take the kill switch lanyard off and actuate the kill switch several times to penetrate any build up that may be preventing a good connection.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good advice here. My outboard was acting up last year and I took it to an authorized repair center. Carburetor was gummed up. Would not idle. The mechanic told me to run Stable in it at all times. After a month, gas will break down and start forming varnish that will clog the carb. He also recommended running it dry after each use but after pulling the gas line off the back and depressing the valve to remove excess gas and pressure that is in the line. Also, always always if you can't store your engine upright, lay it down on the proper side. Usually that is the side the throttle handle is on. In my case, after a winter in the basement on the wrong side, the cylinder filled with oil. Not necessarily a bad thing unless you want to turn it over in the spring. I took out the spark plug as I thought my engine was seized, and gave it a pull and it shot oil out the back!

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 10:41:57

My start problem was the gas. Reread the instructions and there is a drain for the carburetor for storage. I drained the carb and pumped new fuel and it started.

Edited by - on

kbq
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 20:34:59

Worked on the motor this weekend. With ether (starting fluid) it starts, and - if I keep spraying - it runs. Tried "fuel system cleaner", even poured it into the line after the filter in the motor. Seems that unless someone has a magic bullet, I'm gonna have to pull the carb...

Sigh.

Kevin

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 21:08:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm gonna have to pull the carb...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You've got it.

Talking to mechanics about this, the (new) conventional wisdom seems to be, at the end of the season, to double up on fuel stabilizer, run the engine so the stabilizer is in the carb, and then not run the engine dry. I did that in my little 2hp kicker and it started in two pulls six months later. Just reporting what I was told...

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5378 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 21:08:22

The carburetor rebuild kit works great and it should take you no more than 2 hours from start to finish, but you should also have the Honda Shop Manual to find all the nooks and crannies. Turns out that there are parts in the carb that are difficult to find, like the main jet and its accompanying O ring. There's also a pump piston that "shoots" gas into the throat of the carb when you rotate the throttle (gun it).

I have a copy of the manual and can scan a few pages (fair use) for you if you wish. Email me if you want it.

And while you can pull the carb by removing the top cover only, you'll be happier removing the starboard side cover as well.

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 22:05:36

Had a similar issue with my little fishing boat (Yamaha outboard) last summer. The boat had been stored for a couple of years and no matter what it wouldn't start, in spite of getting fuel (new) and spark (also new). Ended up having to have the whole carb rebuilt.

My mechanic said the new ethanol additives are destroying small motors (boats, lawnmowers, etc.) like crazy. He recommended adding 'SeaFoam' fuel additive to ALL my motors' fuel systems (boat, weed-eater, car, etc.) It stabilizes, cleans carbs and injectors, lubes engine internals and helps 'breakdown' ethanol.

It seems to make a big difference. Highly recommend it; though it may not help in this case until you get it running again.

Edited by - bren737 on 02/22/2009 22:06:27

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 07:48:08

I haven't seen "Seafoam", but I have started using the new (last year) "Marine StaBil" (green stuff), which claims the same characteristics. The bottle costs double that of their traditional red stuff, but the standard dosage is half. We'll see how my engines (Honda's biggest and littlest) do this spring. Last spring went well.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1778 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2009 : 19:24:01

Don't want to rain on your parade -- but -- my experience with Honda outboards has been radically different from my experience with Honda cars. I had an 8 Honda hp OB and a Honda lawn mower and both were so finicky that I replaced them. By finicky, gas had to be pristine and all settings perfect for them to work well. I am really a Tohatsu believer, simple, robust, inexpensive.

Edited by - on

Rich P
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 10:20:56

Starbrite makes a product called Star Tron. Lets just say I treat a LOT of gas with it and have no problems.
http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 10:28:49

Peter, I've had the opposite experience. Both of our Honda outboards have been bulletproof as have the Hondas on the pressure washer and mower. We've never had a Honda car but our friends all love theirs.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 12:36:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Rich P
 ...Star Tron... I treat a LOT of gas with it and have no problems.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I use it too. But even they say it's not a stabilizer for storage of fuel. Mechanics around me say any ethanol-laced gas that might be around for a month or more should be stabilized. I put Startron and Marine StaBil into each tank. There's no way of knowing if they really help, but....... (...looking for some wood to knock on!)

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 13:13:42

If 10% ethanol enriched gas sits undisturbed for a month or 2, nothing will prevent phase seperation in independent testing; read the PS and other tests, not manufacturer's or anecdotal claims. Don't store gas over the winter or hope you're lucky, take your choice.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5378 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 15:13:36

If separation occurs, is it possible to siphon the gas off from the ethanol?
I think what all of us wants is gasoline without a bunch of alcohol in it.

Edited by - on

Rich P
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 16:33:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Rich P
 ...Star Tron... I treat a LOT of gas with it and have no problems.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I use it too. But even they say it's not a stabilizer for storage of fuel. Mechanics around me say any ethanol-laced gas that might be around for a month or more should be stabilized. I put Startron and Marine StaBil into each tank. There's no way of knowing if they really help, but....... (...looking for some wood to knock on!)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Startron stabilizes gas up to a year according to them.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 18:35:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 I had an 8 Honda hp OB and a Honda lawn mower and both were so finicky that I replaced them. By finicky, gas had to be pristine and all settings perfect for them to work well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A search of the forums for "Honda Problem" will bring up more than a few who've had the same issues. A fellow sailor at my marina fought his Honda 8 (in and out of the shop, then back in and out) for the good part of the summer one time due to sensitivity problems with gas.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 18:58:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 If separation occurs, is it possible to siphon the gas off from the ethanol? I think what all of us wants is gasoline without a bunch of alcohol in it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As it was explained to me, phase separation causes water that is held in suspension by the ethanol to be released because of temperature changes, but it doesn't cause the ethanol to separate from the gas.

My statement that Startron doesn't claim to be a stabilizer is based on what their VP of Sales stated right here on this site a couple of years ago. Maybe that's changed, but I haven't heard that it's a new formulation.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5378 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2009 : 22:12:55

So Dave - that's the reason for the water separator in the fuel line. And it's not a bad thing to physically remove the water from the gas.

I've used the pink stuff, and the engine still had issues at low idle.

I'm hoping that my winter carburetor cleaning will keep the engine running well all season, but with ethanol gas, I am not counting on it.

Edited by - on

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