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Wire Size

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/11/2009 : 12:01:22

After work tonight I am picking up a length of wire to go from charger to batteries.

The PO used 8GA, but I think it is overkill. Catalina used a much lighter gauge of wire between the Batteries and panel, but I can't remember what gauge.

Can anyone here advise wire gauge to connect a Xantrex Trucharge 10A charger to batteries and batteries to house panel?

Thanks in advance!

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 12:14:33

Found my own answer... (RTFM - which happens to be online)

For wire run of 0 - 8 ft use 14 GA wire with Blue connectors
For Wire run of 8 - 12 ft use 12 GA wire with Yellow connectors
For Wire run of 12 - 20 ft use 10 GA wire with Yellow connectors

Looks like I can drop down to 14 GA wire depending on where the charger is mounted. That will be MUCH easier to work with than th eexisting 8 GA.

Edited by - Prospector on 03/11/2009 12:18:14

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 14:17:38

DON'T FORGET that the distance is measured THERE AND BACK AGAIN, not one way! For the entire length of the circuit. Factor in all wiring lengths, not just the stuff you're replacing.

What voltage drop table did you use, 3% or 10%.

And what's the matter with slightly larger wire? In most all cases, electrically, it wouldn't hurt. Skimping or trying to make it smaller or smallest only increases the dependence of the entire wiring system on the quality of the connections.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 03/11/2009 14:18:31

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2009 : 01:46:21

Good information and another scale is 14 gauge 15 amps, 12 gauge 20 amp, 10 gauge 30 amp. A good test is feel the temp of the connectors and wire during use and no loose connections.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2009 : 09:04:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 DON'T FORGET that the distance is measured THERE AND BACK AGAIN, not one way! For the entire length of the circuit. Factor in all wiring lengths, not just the stuff you're replacing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you saying that for a positive wire that has to run 8 feet, I should measure it as a 16 ft length to calculate wire size?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What voltage drop table did you use, 3% or 10%.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I read page 7 of the owners manual. http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/453/docserve.aspx I hope they gave me good info.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> And what's the matter with slightly larger wire? In most all cases, electrically, it wouldn't hurt. Skimping or trying to make it smaller or smallest only increases the dependence of the entire wiring system on the quality of the connections.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nothing except that I have a hard time soldering anything bigger than 18ga and I don't trust my crimps to hold. Yes I do have some shortcomings to work out. I am thinking of relocating the charger as close to the batteries as possible just to get the smallest wire possible to work with.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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Response Posted - 03/12/2009 : 14:22:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Are you saying that for a positive wire that has to run 8 feet, I should measure it as a 16 ft length to calculate wire size?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not exactly. What you need to do is look at the whole circuit length, not just the length of wire you are replacing. You could have, for instance, a length of 20 feet from the battery to the equipment being powered, which would make the entire length 40 feet. If you're replacing only parts of the wiring, you need to check the whole string out for sizing and voltage drop. See this: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/MarineWire.htm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What voltage drop table did you use, 3% or 10%.

I read page 7 of the owners manual. http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/453/docserve.aspx I hope they gave me good info.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The table says MINIMUM wire size. Doesn't mean you can't go bigger. Simply check it out against the WM wire sizing link I gave you to make sure you got it right, that's all. The Xantrex table doesn't say what voltage drop they sued.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> And what's the matter with slightly larger wire? In most all cases, electrically, it wouldn't hurt. Skimping or trying to make it smaller or smallest only increases the dependence of the entire wiring system on the quality of the connections.

Nothing except that I have a hard time soldering anything bigger than 18ga and I don't trust my crimps to hold. Yes I do have some shortcomings to work out. I am thinking of relocating the charger as close to the batteries as possible just to get the smallest wire possible to work with.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You don't have to solder, what you need to do is invest in, or borrow, the right tools. You wouldn't use a hammer on a screw, would ya? OK, OK, I admit I have done that until I learned better!

Get a ratcheting crimper from Ancor and you'll (almost) always do great crimps. Why move stuff when using the right wire size will work? I just don't get the concept...

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 03/12/2009 14:27:01

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2009 : 20:19:07

The manual is correct, but it must be read correctly. It states "TOTAL DC WIRE LENGTH" the key word is TOTAL in other words there and back. I used 10 gage on mine with a run of 12 feet. Six there and six back.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2009 : 20:35:20

Chris,
If you're worried about your crimps (and you should be), take a trip down the Harbor Freight & pick up a ratcheting crimper. They're about $15 or (or $50 pretty much anywhere else). I bought mine there & compared it to a $50 one, not sure I could see the difference, but it sure makes a healthy crimp. Once you've made the crimp, don't be shy about trying to pull it apart to test it.

Edited by - on

swanny
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2009 : 01:05:21

This is kind of fun for wire sizing:
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

BTW, in US Naval aviation we do not solder splices that aren't environmentally sealed due to the vibrations they are subjected to. In non-sealed applications (like terminal ends) we crimp for the mechanical joint, and then flow solder into them for corrosion limiting purposes.

I'll tell you, for marine (not Ooh-Rah Marine :) applications a can of liquid electrical tape would serve you well in almost all splicing. I put it on almost every splice I do aboard. It is available at most hardware stores....and you can avoid the soldering for corrosion prevention purposes.

I agree with previous posters....ratcheting crimpers are GREAT.....and all we use in the NAVY shops today. Buy them and they'll last you the rest of your life.

If you do solder, make sure you clean ALL the flux off the joints to dissuade corrosion....Isopropyl alcohol and an acid brush work great for this.

Corey

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 09:05:56

OK Guys, I tried every hardware store within 50 miles and no one around here has even HEARD of ratcheting criimpers. Canadian Tire, Home Hardware, Home Depot, Lowes, Princess Auto, Rigging Shoppe, and a Stinkpotter "Marine Supply House", each took turns looking at me like I had 2 heads.

Does Harbour Freight sell online and across the border?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 09:09:42

The Good News:

I got the 8GA to work by using Vice Grips as my crimper. I have some cheesy old made in china knock-offs that have never tightened properly. looks like they are now crimpers.

Also good news: the stinkpotter "Marine Supply House" sells marine electronics for cheaper than the sailing chandleries. I picked up a new impeller for the OB, a new mainshaft seal, ordered a lighted switch for the charger, properly sized fuses (30 Amp is right, right?) and a bunch of connectors etc. for much less than at the sailing shops. Yay.

The wires are now run, and I'm just waiting for the switch to come in.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 10:51:39

[url="http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93977"]Harbor Freight Ratcheting Crimper[/url]

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 10:56:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 The Good News:... by using Vice Grips as my crimper. I have some cheesy old...that have never tightened properly...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The BAD News: you get what you pay for: vice grips should never be used for crimpers because they make for surely lousy connections. I recommend you be very careful when you run your little ship. Electricity is a safety issue, and doing it right should be a high priority. The $ you saved by doing some very good comparative shopping should have been put into your crimps and a good crimping tool. In fact, one of those cheezy cheap crimpers you get with "starter kits" of connectors would have been better than a vice grip. Why? Because the vice grip simply flattens the crimp, it doesn't "crimp" it hard enough to the wire. Your boat, your choice. We can make suggestions, you can read 'em, and still do whatever you want...

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 03/16/2009 10:57:27

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 11:33:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93977"]Harbor Freight Ratcheting Crimper[/url]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Joe. Will see if they ship here.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 11:50:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 The Good News:... by using Vice Grips as my crimper. I have some cheesy old...that have never tightened properly...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The BAD News: you get what you pay for: vice grips should never be used for crimpers because they make for surely lousy connections. I recommend you be very careful when you run your little ship. Electricity is a safety issue, and doing it right should be a high priority. The $ you saved by doing some very good comparative shopping should have been put into your crimps and a good crimping tool. In fact, one of those cheezy cheap crimpers you get with "starter kits" of connectors would have been better than a vice grip. Why? Because the vice grip simply flattens the crimp, it doesn't "crimp" it hard enough to the wire. Your boat, your choice. We can make suggestions, you can read 'em, and still do whatever you want...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe I wasn't clear. Price has nothing to do with it on this one. I went to every store I could think of and everyone has nothing other than the flat stamped crimpers that come with the starter kits. Seriously. I want th ecrimpers listed above. I just called HF and they are on backorder for at least 3 weeks. Then HF wants me to go through their "international sales" department to get the crimpers.

I don't believe the starter kit crimpers would have been the better option here since they can't get enough pressure on the connection to actually hold. All they do is twist around the wire such that the wire is stuck between the blades. the wire gauge is too large for those crimpers.

I am actively looking for options here, and do recognize that the work I did on the weekend is temporary at best.

An interesting development fromthe recession is the number of online stores flying the maple leaf in their banner and offering "Canadian Pricing" Its too bad HF isn't one of them. "Main Electronics" (whoever they are) has an interesting array of crimpers for around $30 but is willing to ship here without extra hassle. I may end up buying through them.

I just found these (Yay!) and may end up with them... http://www.bosstoolsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=10832

A lot pricier than the HF stuff, but at least they can get to me. I'm sorry Stu, but maybe you just don't see th efrustration I am having with what should be a very simple thing here. I appreciate your solution and would love to implement it (hey - I switched from soldering to crimping based on your advice!) but I can't execute it without the right equipment, and if the right tools aren't available then I have to improvise wherever I can. Thanks for the tips on how the Vice Grip crimps aren't actually crimps. I'm not throwing away your advice, just trying to do what i can with what's available.

Edited by - Prospector on 03/16/2009 12:01:24

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2009 : 09:01:13

I am dragging this back to th etop of the list because I *think* I may have finally found a way to get my hands on the crimpers. YAY!

If you look at the top image on this page, http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination You will find that I used the vice grips (which both Stu and this guy say are the worst thing to do, I own the second pair, which both Stu and this guy say are crap, I can find the third pair, which appear adequate, but not much better than the second pair, and finally after searching every day since Stu replied to my thread, I have found a local supplier who *thinks* he can get the fourth pair, which is basically what I was after all along.

Stu, we can both rest easy knowing my boat has a lower probability of burning down once the crimpers arrive.

The crimpers should be available via special order through Westburne-Ruddy electric. I should find out a price later in the day. Although they are not th eAncor name, they are the same design, and are a professional tool, so I anticipate quality will be high. I'll clue folks in once these arrive.

Westburne is a trade store, and the guy at the desk had a hard time understanding why I couldn't just crimp the wire with the smaller crimpers. I told him I was a wimp, he seemed ok with that. Apparently they don't get much demand for these crimpers.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2009 : 15:55:37

[rant] I cannot begin to express my frustration with UPS. If I could hunt down the $%*(%^ truck with my crimpers on it, I would flatten all four of its tires and tie the driver to the steering wheel, smother him with honey, and drop fire ants on him.

I ordered the crimpers last week from an online tools place after Westburne called back to say they can't get them after all. So I'm paying $20 in shipping for a $18 tool similar to the ones you guys suggested from HF. [url="http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=360-642%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&FTR=360-642%20&CFID=7742946&CFTOKEN=13794018"]Crimpers[/url]

When the UPS guy got to my office with the package I was surprised to learn that UPS wanted another $21.00 in brokerage fees. I thought there was no brokerage on orders under $20. The UPS guy told me to take it up with their head office and left with the package under his arm. OK, I'll play the sucker...

I called UPS, and they acknowledged that the order was under $20USD, but that with exchange it was over $20 CAD, so I was on the hook for the $21 brokerage fee. I tried not to explode. After explaining that this was ridiculous, the UPS folks gave me a "One time exception because they value my business." I thanked them, and the girl told me the tool would be back on the truck today.

Guess what - no UPS driver came to the office today. (We normally use FedEX). We have 4 secretaries running our front desk, always 2 on duty at any time, and no one saw a driver from UPS all day. I went online to look up my tracking form, here's what it says...

"THE RECEIVER DOES NOT ACCEPT C.O.D.'S AND REFUSED THIS DELIVERY"

WTF! I just got off the phone with UPS and they have apologised and are "deeply concerned." They assure me that the package will be delivered tomorrow, and that I should make sure that it isn't refused. To which I replied "ARE YOU LISTENING YOU MORON!! THE DAMNED THING NEVER EVEN CAME THROUGH THE DOORS!!!"

I have sworn off UPS before, and now I wish I had gone with USPS for this shipment again. I don't know what recourse I will have if the tool is headed back to the States (been through that before - another brokerage fee as it crosses the border, which the vendor direct bills back to my credit card, then tries to reship via UPS which results in ANOTHER damned brokerage fee as it crosses the border again.)

If ever you have to ship ANYTHING across the border demand that it NOT be sent UPS. They are the worst service, the worst money, and the worst to communicate with of any courier I have ever met. Even DHL does better and I have to drive nearly an hour to their nearest depot.

If you are selling something and only ship UPS, they just cost you my business. [/rant]

You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussions...

Edited by - Prospector on 03/24/2009 15:57:33

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2009 : 18:03:08

And now, returning from the commercial

I just learned that Ancor has been bought out by Marinco, so searching for ancor.com did me no good.

Somehow, somewhere in Canada, near Toronto, I would think that this piece of equipment would be available to you: http://www.marinco.com/product/double-crimp-ratchet-tool-1

You can search around their 'site to find dealers near you. I haven't and maybe there aren't, but I'm sure there are electricians and boat electricians who haven't had to deal with UPS or FedEx to get their tools. Heck, aren't ya still makin' automobiles up dere, eh? (Qualified to so speak as my wife is from Toronto

)

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 08:11:31

Yup Stu. I am just as surprised as you with the effort this has taken.

We do still make automobiles, but maybe not for long. Chrysler is thinking of pulling the plug on us. Of course Toyota, Honda, GM and Ford are still around, but still, it would suck to lose one of the big 3.

I have my fingers crossed that the UPS guy makes things happen today.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 10:40:15

I found the ratcheting crimpers at Nationwise auto for $18 bucks.

They are the bomb

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 11:02:46

I have a great racheting crimper that was "donated" by the U.S.Navy in 1968. In government pricing, it probably cost $500.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 16:02:13

Well, 5 minutes to 5:00 and no UPS delivery. I just called UPS and they assured me that they are on the truck...

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 10:52:37

Ups just delivered the package... Now I can get to work.

Edited by - on

swanny
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2009 : 08:08:25

Hold on now....what kind of wire strippers are you using?
I highly recommend you get these ones:
http://www.galco.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/wa/wcat/itemdtl.r?listtype=Catalog&pnum=1113-PALA
http://www.galco.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/wa/wcat/itemdtl.r?listtype=Catalog&pnum=1114-PALA
;)
Just playing, what a nightmare for some crimpers!
You have more fortitude than I!....Good for you!
Corey

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2009 : 09:05:06

I can find Strippers Swanny. Thats no challenge at all.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2009 : 09:26:11

Hey, I put the new crimpers to use this weekend - they were worth the battle. Thanks for the tip guys. Everything is wired back in. The trickle charger is on th ebatteries, and we'll see how the system works once its on its own.

Edited by - on

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