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New to Sailing, mainsail setup question

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monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/08/2009 : 09:58:12

Hello. I'm pretty new to Catalinas. Just bought a 1984 Cat 25 Tall Rig. I'm slowly but surely working out all the kinks, and doing things to make the boat easier to sail.

My question today is in regard to mainsail function. My main always seems "too loose". It never seems like its tight enough to really affect good wind pressure when pointing. On the outhaul, there are 4 stainless steel rings that have dropped down and now rest on the outhaul area. (wish I had a picture). One of these rings has a bit of light rope attached to it. It looks like the other end of this rope is still attached to a grommet on the leech of the main. These rings will run all the way up and down the boom rigging.

My question is this: Should I attach these rings rather loosely up and down the leech of the main? My idea is to only leave these attachments loose enough to allow the main to be stowed easily on the boom. I also have an idea that if the main is better furled out toward the boom rigging, then the boom vang will have more effect. Right now it seems to have little to no effect. Maybe my main is just too big, or worn out and stretched. But it seems to me to simply be too "pocket-like". I think pulling it back will tighten the whole system. What do you guys think?

84 TR/FK 25'

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2009 : 10:16:38

Hmmm,
Step one is to raise a main all the way, Make sure there is enough halyard tension that the luff along the mast is tight and has no horizontal wrinkles, (same with the head sail, no looseness on the luff). I do not know what the rings are, I hope they are not some jury rigged system to attach the leech to the topping lift to act like a Dutchman system. The foot of the main may be loose or bolt rope, in either case the foot on an old tired main should be tight to reduce the pocket as you said, another thing to help with the "bag" is to use the Cunningham if you have one, it will be a cringle up the luff a foot or two up from the boom. If you need new sails your money is best spent on a head sail, the boat is head sail driven. I bought a new main first on my '82 rather than listen to the wisdom of this forum and discovered that I pointed better but did not gain any real power.
Welcome to the forum, ask away, and yes pictures help. You can find lots of rigging shots at my pages.
http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#gallery

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2009 : 11:15:02

Here is a diagram of a mainsail. It's hard to visualize your mysterious rings. Where on this diagram are those rings - above the clew? Are they part of your reefing setup? Are they built into the sail or attached to the sail somehow?

To flatten the main the 3 corners are trimmed. Each has a different kind of rigging: the halyard, the tack cringle with or without a cunningham, and the outhaul. Can you tighten each of those in your setup?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2009 : 11:47:10

Cut the rings off. Probably some kind of old Dutchman that you never needed. C25 mains are easy to flake. C52 mains - you might need a dutchman.

To flatten the main, winch the halyard up hard, outhaul tight, vang on, topping lift off. Vang has only a minor effect. To go even flatter, use the cunningham. You may need to move the boom down a little.

Keep in mind, though, that the C25 is faster sailing "full and by" or with the main full and sheeted out a few inches, the jib eased just a few inches and cracked off the wind just a few degrees below max pointing. You can point high, but in my opinion pinching too high kills C25 boat speed. Save that high pinch for getting around the mark in the last few boatlengths.

My guess is you have an old main with a "shelf foot". The foot is designed to be baggy, to get it out you have to put in the flattening reef, which is a reef only about 6 inches deep. See if you have a cringle for this on the leech.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2009 : 13:16:53

Welcome... uhh... er... Monkey! Does this main have a bolt rope in the boom slot, or is it loose-footed (secured at the tack and clew only)? What sort of out-haul do you have? How old is the sail. If it's original, I'd say it's just bagged out--not shelf-footed like Jim describes.

I'm wondering if the four "rings" are grommets for the reef-ties and have been pulled out of the sailcloth. (Note the little diamond-shapes parallel to the boom on John's diagram--are there grommets in those diamond-shaped patches.) This could happen if the sail was reefed and those were tied down too tightly--they should only be tied loosely to tidy up the reefed sail. The grommet you refer to on the leach sounds like the reef clew. (You can "Search" for discussions on reefing.)

Pictures can help... See the Testing forum for instructions on how to include them in a post.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2009 : 13:27:13

My first guess when I read this was that the "rings" are the grommets for the 1st and 2nd reef. If they are, as Jim suggested, rings for a Dutchman system, leave them alone until you gain some experience with the sail. You may find that you'd like a Dutchman even though, as Jim said, that size mainsail flakes pretty easily.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 16:44:11

It always amazes me to hear about the unique setups each of these boats have, and to see the expertise on this board sort out some very unique situations!

Kudos to all the folks who keep helping out!

Edited by - on

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 20:27:34

Wow! Thanks for all the great responses. These are not grommets torn loose from a damaged sail. These rings are sure-enough rig rated rings. They are continuous loops, welded stainless steel. They sit on the topping lift, capable of running all the way up the topping lift. I've tried to figure out what a dutchman system is, but I cant figure what that might be for this application.

I dont think there's anything wrong with the sail, I just need to figure out how to trim it correctly. It does seem really loose and parachute-like, and I think I'm raising it all the way, and it seems to be hauled out tight. Could the topping lift be too short? All of the extra luff in the sail seems to be at the foot, all the way from the clew to the tack.

I'll try to get pics up so you guys can see more of what I'm talking about.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 21:11:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by monkeybird02
 ...it seems to be hauled out tight... All of the extra luff in the sail seems to be at the foot, all the way from the clew to the tack.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">??? Yup--I think we need some pix. In the mean time:

1. The topping lift must be slack when the sail is fully hoisted. Is it?

2. (...repeating myself) What do you have for an out-haul? A pic would really help here.

3. How old is the main (if you know)?

Keep in mind that a "little" Catalina can't really sail closer than about 45 degrees from the "true" wind. The bow will point higher than that, but the higher you point, the less speed and more leeway you'll have. Your "apparent" wind (what you see on your wind indicator while under way) makes it look like you're sailing much higher because of your boat's movement through the air. Leeway is counter-productive, while speed is productive--it reduces leeway. Fall off a few degrees and see if she looks and feels better. With old, bagged-out sails, fall off a few more. Very few of us have board-hard mainsails and equally flat jibs.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/14/2009 22:44:59

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 21:33:13

This a drawing from the
[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/manbro.asp"]Catalina 25 Manual (post 88)[/url] located in the Assoc. web site.

It is a basic drawing but it might help you visualize your set up.
The Assoc. web site provides fairly complete owners manuals and brochures for both the C-25 (pre and post 1988) and the C-250.
It should be a help and worth downloading.

Underlined words are HOT links.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 22:44:27

Peregrine's schematic shows a "pigtail" that hangs down from the backstay. That's an alternative to a topping lift, but it's not nearly as convenient (and when you forget about it, an outright pain). Mine stayed permanently clipped to the backstay.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 22:55:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by monkeybird02
 All of the extra luff in the sail seems to be at the foot, all the way from the clew to the tack.

I'll try to get pics up so you guys can see more of what I'm talking about.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That description sounds like the mainsail might have a racing shelf foot. A shelf foot has a very deep pocket, all along the foot. In light air, it's kept full. As windspeed and boatspeed increase, you flatten it by either increasing tension on the outhaul, or by tucking in a short flattening reef.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 11:08:51

Monkeybird02,
Welcome to the 1984 TR class. Congratulations on a very fine purchase. You obviously have great taste in boats!

My mainsail also has a racing shelf foot, at least I think that is what I have. When the outhaul is tightened, an extra horizontal fold in the fabric develops, running from the tack to the clew. I think that is intentional. If your outhaul is adjustable, try letting it out a bit when sailing in light air and see if the fold bags out and becomes smooth along the foot of the sail.
For heavier air, I suggest using the flattening reef first (the grommet on the leech between the clew and the reefing grommet, if your sail has one, and if real heavy air, reefing the main.
For reefing, I have found that a second sail stop in the mast track is helpful if your mast gate is open. The first sail stop is positioned normally at the top of the gate to keep the sail slides from falling out of the groove. The second sail stop is positioned under the boom, which I secure in place just below the mast gate. This shortens the distance between the lowest sail slide and the boom.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/15/2009 11:09:46

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 11:17:03

BTW, in winds 15+, gusting to 20+, a full main and 135 will heel the boat too much. Don't ask me how I know this! Reef the main first, preferably before leaving the dock. If still too much heel, reduce sail to the working jib. This is a headsail-driven boat, so you want as much headsail up as you can comfortably work with. Note also that reefing the main will reduce it to almost the same size as a standard rig (SR) mainsail. Some of the other TR owners, especially the coastal sailors, have a second reef in their main.
The difference in mast length is 2 ft., but the difference in mainsail luff is 3 ft., which is why the TR boom rides a foot lower than a SR boom.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/15/2009 11:21:12

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 12:56:50

Maste gates are much better than sail stops.

http://catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1013

Edited by - pastmember on 04/15/2009 12:57:14

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 14:06:09

Better, yes, but not essential, and makes it a real pain the remove the sail. I'd like to see a 1-piece hinged gate with wing nuts.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 14:24:55

Really Dave?? How often do you remove your sail? I guess if you are trailering it is an issue. I like the mast gates, but I have a mortal fear of dropping a screw every time I take the gates off.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 15:35:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...I have a mortal fear of dropping a screw every time I take the gates off.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Wow! An investment in a couple of 20-cent spares might add years to your life!

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 16:24:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Really Dave?? How often do you remove your sail? I guess if you are trailering it is an issue. I like the mast gates, but I have a mortal fear of dropping a screw every time I take the gates off.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Prospector,
I go through the same thing each spring and fall and I am on a mooring so dropping them means GONE.
I would go to the hardware store and get spares but I do not know how to determine or specify the threads.
Since the threads are tapped into the mast I don't want to strip them out.
Is there a way to tell what screw to buy?
TIA

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 16:31:46

Peregrine - the best way (I know of) to size screws is to take a handful of nut and see what one matches the screw.

Go to the hardware store with that nut, and match another screw to it. I have a jar with an assortment of nuts and bolts on my workbench, and although I never have the screw I need for a job, it often comes in handy for this sort of thing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2009 : 23:51:30

I take a screw to the store, find a nut that fits it, and then buy the screws that match the nut.

Edited by - on

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:47:59

Ok. Lots of info to look closely at! Thanks for all the advice about trimming the main. First things first though: I have both a topping lift and a pigtail. I always undo the pigtail before hoisting the main. However, my topping lift is not slack. It is definitely pulling up on the boom when I'm sheeted in tight. In fact, it doesn't slack off until the end of the boom is out past the side of the boat. Once I'm running with the wind aft, the boom lifts and the topping lift slacks off.

My problem (besides having forgotten to take pictures of the rig) is that the way that the topping lift is rigged to the boom is also the way the outhaul is tightened. I'll be going up tomorrow and I will get good pics. Maybe I'll even be able to figure out how to post them.

Thanks for all the informative replies. Cant wait to get this problem solved so I can get more down to the brass tacks of this boat.

Edited by - monkeybird02 on 04/18/2009 10:09:40

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 18:55:48

Well that is your problem, the topping lift must be slack so the back edge of the sail can straighten out.

Edited by - on

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 21:01:06

So, how do I do that whilst keeping the outhaul tight? Keep in mind that I'll be attempting to post pics of my clusterf**k soon.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 09:26:17

The topping lift and the outhaul are not related other than terminating at the same area of the boom end. Release the topping lift, do not release the outhaul.

this is a sail with no topping lift but a good shot of an outhaul.

Edited by - on

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 10:07:34

Wow. My rig is f'd up. The topping lift is attached to the boom via an extra loop in the outhaul (I think). My outhaul setup is really weird anyway. It's essentially some rope on small blocks between the clew and the end of the boom thats been pulled tight and then tied with about 15 half-hitches back toward the clew. Its so un-adjustable that these half hitches are covered with green algae because they have never been untied. I'm going to redo the whole system. I'm going to the boat today and I will take pictures. If any of you have good pics of how you have rigged your outhaul, I'd love to see 'em.

So, do I need the topping lift if I have the pigtail? What should I do with the topping lift when I detach it? Or should I leave it and just attach it differently?

BTW, thanks a million for all the help. This forum is awesome. I should probably join. Is the magazine pretty good?

Edited by - on

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