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Wheel helm: why?

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/16/2009 : 01:33:07

"Old salts" tell me that a wheel helm is not required on a sailing vessel under 40' LOA, that a tiller helm is more "effective". If so, why have a wheel helm on a 250?

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2009 : 01:59:16

I have been reluctant to comment on the threads where sailors are adding wheel steering to their boats. It's something they want, it's quite expensive and the work is extensive.
But...
Having "grown up" on J-35's in the 80's and seen some go to wheel steering I know it is a mistake. We left them at the line.
Adding the weight of the binnacle and all the chain or whatever to the stern makes no sense and makes the boat slow and cumbersome.
IMO why give up the direct feel of the rudder right to your hand. There is no more synergistic relationship of sailor to boat than a tiller connected to the rudder.
There is no advantage to adding the weight to the stern and losing the "feel" of the boat and yes this works all the way up to 50' (no typo) footers.

Edited by - Peregrine on 04/16/2009 02:17:09

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/16/2009 : 03:58:28

I love to race and love the feedback that you get through a tiller, but sailing isn't only about racing. Because a tiller swings all the way across the cockpit seats on a small boat like a C25/250, it makes the whole cockpit aft of the tip of the tiller inhospitable to passengers and crew. All the space forward of a wheel is occupiable. For racers, the principle is similar. Depending on the boat, a wheel might leave more space for the cockpit crew to position themselves so that they have good balance, and so that they don't interfere with each other while tacking the boat. A tiller reduces the space that crew has in which to work. Even for racers, the question of tiller vs. wheel, is a compromise that the owner has to make. When I bought my present wheel-steered boat a few years ago, I had to learn how to steer all over again. Without the feedback of a tiller, I had to find other ways to learn what was going on with the boat. You have to gather all your information through your eyes and other senses, and through instruments and other devices. Since you can't feel the tiller pressure, you just have to know that the boat is starting to labor when it is heeling beyond a certain angle. It isn't a very romantic way to sail a boat, but it's more scientific and it's workable. All that being said, it's hard for me to justify a wheel on a 25' boat, but it's still largely a matter of personal preference.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/16/2009 05:20:12

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 07:24:42

We sought out wheel steering, and continue to be very happy with it, for the following reasons:

1-Passengers don't have to scramble as the tiller sweeps the cockpit.
2-Creates more room in the cockpit.
3-Pedestal allows for mounting of critical gear such as GPS and VHF right at the helm.
3-Pedestal allows for mounting of folding cockpit table, binocular holder, drink holder, sunglass holder, etc at a very prime location.
4-Steering with a wheel is much more intuitive for the Admiral and the result is she takes command much more often. This is a benefit both for enjoyment and safety as she has become more proficient. Ditto for guests who want to take a shot at the helm.
5-It gets me standing more often which is healthier than sitting on long cruise days and also provides great sight lines.
6-It fulfills my self-image as a pirate, much like my hero Captain Jack Sparrow, who are almost always at the wheel.

Our C22 had a tiller and that was fun too.

Like many things on our boats, different people have different perspectives and they are all good.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/17/2009 07:25:53

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 08:15:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Because a tiller swings all the way across the cockpit seats on a small boat like a C25/250, it makes the whole cockpit aft of the tip of the tiller inhospitable to passengers and crew.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve, do you swing the tiller like a baseball bat?

Although I've never had issues between passengers in the cockpit and the swing of the tiller, I guess one might have to say "excuse me" once in a while, like when tacking, but the other 99.9% of the time my tiller's somewhat centered.

I never realized how much information I get from a tiller until I helmed a wheel-steered boat. With a tiller, one can virtually sail a straight course while blind folded in a quartering sea just by the feel of the tiller. I know this because I close my eyes every now and again and do just that. Without having this real time sensory feedback on the wheeled boats I've sailed, I could only react slightly after the fact which in a quartering sea resulted in me driving the boat like a drunken sailor.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 09:13:59

People buy boats for different reasons, some of us sail because of the feel, and all of the reasons Randy cites for a wheel are just reasons to have a powerboat instead of a sailboat. I think there is a unique tone to the two groups of boats owners. I would never call my first mate "the Admiral", she isn't, and so she learned to sail with a tiller because I told her to. She is an excellent helmsman. I represent the first group, those of us who buy sailboats because we like to sail. The other group buys sailboats because they like "sailing" and the experience of guests and spouses is the most important thing. I understand this, I am a great party host and if you ever come to a party at my house you will have a great time because for me giving a party is all about the guests. But if you want to be on my boat you will sit where I tell you to, the boat will heel however much I want it to, and if you don't like it then you will know not to come next time... I am there to sail my boat.
Group 1 = tiller
Group 2 = wheel
Both groups are having a great time and getting what they want out of their boat.

Edited by - pastmember on 04/17/2009 09:17:12

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 09:14:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Don's right, if you helm with your eyes closed...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or in the dark of night.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 09:29:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 
Steve, do you swing the tiller like a baseball bat?

Although I've never had issues between passengers in the cockpit and the swing of the tiller, I guess one might have to say "excuse me" once in a while, like when tacking, but the other 99.9% of the time my tiller's somewhat centered.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Not usually, but I kept my C25 on a small lake, and we tacked often, which meant a guest might have to move often. Also, IMHO it's unsafe to not be able to swing the tiller hard over if necessary, to avoid an obstruction. I'm not saying I prefer a wheel. My C25 had a tiller. I'm just pointing out differences between the tiller and the wheel.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 10:25:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Also, IMHO it's unsafe to not be able to swing the tiller hard over if necessary, to avoid an obstruction.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The C250 with wheel, and its inherently limited rudder travel, doesn't appear to particularly have a hard over position.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/17/2009 10:25:40

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 10:27:09

When ever I get the wheel on a larger boat I can't steer worth a darn. I am always overcorrecting and always late.

Tillers rule.

Simplicity is another great reason to prefer a tiller, plus cheaper autopilots. I have solved the problem on my boat of not having any place to put things. I made a table that fits in the stern under the tiller.

I think the only reason to have a wheel on such a small boat is image.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 12:39:04

And Randy says "Don's right, it you helm with your eyes closed the tiller may be better" as if I'm an idiot.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 14:00:55

I don't agree with Frank's attitude towards guests. I want mine to have fun and come back. I almost always go one headsail size smaller than I would otherwise with novice guests on board. Frank's attitude is more appropriate to Sailing Anarchy.

However, I'll stand by what I said on the wheel on a 25 footer. Novice crew can learn to steer with a tiller in 5 minutes. I have never learned to steer properly with a wheel. Charlie's wheel broke on his C250 and he was steering with a tiller - after hitting the bridge - at least until he got back to the dock.

As to being self-absorbed, I don't think that's it. I think most sailors have strong opinions.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:03:59

Such controversy. Hey guys, lets ease up. This is not a test and there are no right or wrong answers. Lets lose the attitude.

Frank I have always sailed with a tiller. Couple years ago I went out in a friends Catalina 30 with a wheel. Funny but I could not get the hang of it. I steered as if I had a tiller. Same thing happened another time with a larger boat.
But having guests on board Piseas II does take a little getting used to sailing with a tiller(if they have never sailed before) but in the end its easy to pick up. I suppose many get wheels because of their spouses-meaning its easier- in their thinking- to learn to steer with a wheel. Maybe so if you aren't been used to a tiller. That's kinda why I haven't graduated to a larger boat. I like the feel and sensitivity that has been mentioned. That is more effective sailing.
As far as the tiller swing, I have my guests sit forward or in the cat bird seats or even raise the tiller if needed. Frank, I guess i am an "old salt" like you. There is nothing wrong with that, is there?

Steve A
PS Most of my guests return one time or another. It might be the spirits and appetizers I bring or the occasional sailing with the dolphins that bring them back. My wife on the other hand has had at least 3 "incidents" which could explain why she doesn't like to go out.

Edited by - piseas on 04/17/2009 15:05:25

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:21:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I have never learned to steer properly with a wheel.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Jim, I suffered from the same affliction when I went from tiller to wheel. I was getting invited to steer some neat boats, and had to decline because I knew I couldn't steer efficiently with the wheel. Now, after nearly five years, I can steer just fine with a wheel, because I learned the trick to it. You have to find some device that helps you steer an accurate course. The device might be an apparent wind indicator, that helps you keep the boat in the groove with respect to the wind direction. Or, it might be tell tales. In my case, the device that helps me most is the windex, at the top of the mast. When at the helm of a wheel-steered boat, I refer constantly to the windex. (I still never pay any attention to it when sailing a boat with a tiller.) When tacking, I watch the arrow, and when the "feathers" are aligned with the index square, then I know I have turned 90 degrees, and I can stop the turn. When on a beat, the windex tells me that I'm in the groove. If I want to sail a couple of degrees closer to, or farther off the wind, the windex is accurate enough to allow me to do that. I never used a windex when I had a tiller-steered boat, because I felt the tiller feedback gave me all the information that I needed, but with a wheel, the windex is, for me, indispensable. (There are times when a windex will give you false readings, but you learn to not trust it when those circumstances exist.)

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 20:46:31

When we first starting looking for our new boat, I really-really wanted a wheel. I think for some of the reasons Randy mentioned, I liked the look, and felt like I was on a "big" boat. I wasn't going to let tiller/wheel decide the purchase for us however. I've never owned a wheel boat, but I've driven enough of them to know that I like it. However, I like tiller probably just as much, you have the immediate feedback mentioned as well as finer control, but with a wheel, you have better sight lines, a nice central location, it's easy to drive with your toes if you want to, etc. I find when I'm inbound or outbound with my tiller, I end up standing in the cockpit with it tilted probably close to 70 degrees so Rita has room to tend lines & fenders w/o me being in the way.

I've sailed boats up to about 32 feet with a tiller, and up to 46 feet with a wheel. I like both, and I eventually want to have a boat with a wheel, but I'm quite content with my tiller on our 250.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 23:04:54

I ordered my boat with a tiller. Two days after placing the order, the dealer called to explain that a boat was nearing the end of production and was identical to my order except it had a wheel and could be had in two weeks instead of the 2-3 months quoted and with no additional cost.

Twenty four hours were requested to decide. Time wasn't a factor but the wheel had been given a little thought and decided against because of the increased cost. I'd helmed for years with a stick and tiller but did have some cruising time on a wheel equipped C-30 and liked it fine, particularly enjoyed had been standing and helming.

In fact, I'd commented to the owner of the C-30 how nice it was to stand and helm and told the story of being raised on a farm and of our two tractors one of them lent itself much better to standing at the wheel and it was favored for that reason when long hours of field work were in play or demanding observation was needed.

I took the offer of the wheel equipped boat but regretted the decision for many years. Most of you have read my chronicles of frustration with the Edson Small Boat System and that they were finally alleviated after self produced modifications greatly altering the steering ratio to favor much better leverage.

In my view, the prime reason for wheel over tiller is better leverage that eases fatigue from long hours at a helm. And... that is mostly a cruising issue and boat like a 250 are usually not cruised where fatigue becomes a factor. I'm not however discounting that there are other pluses to a wheel as Randy has outlined. Docking a 250 is significantly more difficult than other boats I've handled and I appreciate the standing position when doing it.

I'm sensitive to both sides of the debate, which is really a bit like which outboard to buy... when the reality is that most all of the brands get the job done fairly well.

One issue that hasn't been covered and I'll have to go out on a limb a little because I've never used a tiller pilot, but it seems to me that a wheel pilot though as noted being twice or three times the cost of a tiller pilot, is probably far less of a hassle to deal with. I know that on a wheel pilot the pilot lives in place 24/7 and engaging/disengaging takes a half second flip of a clutch lever. Nothing has to be stowed/un-stowed or hooked up/removed to use it. Once again, more of an issue for a boat that is cruised.

Also, I can't speak to performance comparisons of tiller and wheel pilot on a 250. I can only offer my observation of wheel pilot usage and that it was limited to when motoring and probably less than half of sailing conditions because of excess wheel torque. That changed after steering mods more than doubled the steering ratio and transformed the helm from a thing of great effort at times to effortless even in the most demanding conditions making life very much easier for the pilot.

In fact, during my last Great Lakes cruise, we made a 100 mile crossing of Lake Huron and the pilot had the helm for more than ninety of those miles during moderately strong winds and good boat speed in a moderate surf. If I recall, the crossing took about nineteen hours, all under sail and included all of the dark hours of night with running lights, vhf & gps/sounder on all the time and the stereo playing about half that time on a bank of two six volt golf cart batteries and there was energy to spare. I can't compare the energy consumption with a tiller pilot as I've never used one.

While I agree that man can never escape making comparisons, a favorite story indicates that comparisons are good for self betterment but not so good when judgment of others takes place.

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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772 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 05:28:55

its all about getting comfy for me ...pluses and minuses for everything in life
at least were out there ..run what ya-brung !!

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 06:28:50

Arlyn, good points. Having installed your pull/pull steering system last year I can attest to the greater degree of control and sensitivity it offers and I highly recommend it.

Sean, you are just looking waaaaay to comfortable there! I got that same BBQ for Christmas and will installing it today. Cookout on the boat tomorrow!

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 15:57:58

The "device" one uses to steer a wheel steered boat is the same as using a tiller. When we switched, I took some time to learn this, but it really is easy: Treat one of the spokes as if it was the tiller! Sure, the chains and wires and the quadrant involved in wheel steering do take some of the immediate feedback away from the "system" but there is absolutely no reason one can't learn to steer as well with a wheel as a tiller. What I've heard here is a lot of folks moving to unfamiliar boats from their C25s to other boats. Yes, it does take some time to get used to the change. I "handle" our wheel spoke(s) tenderly because if the sails on the boat are properly trimmed, there should be little difference in finding the "groove" between a tiller and a wheel. I have many friends who "just can't get it" and one of the true downsides of wheels is that people tend to horribly over-steer. I explain "spoke-by-spoke" but they just can't do it. I admit I haven't had them on a tiller, but then there's always the "it's backwards" BS. It's a learning experience, not one better than the other.

Of course, this "controversy" will NEVER ever go away.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 04/18/2009 16:00:04

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 20:21:07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGupz_9mGc& feature=related

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frogger
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 01:44:46

When we were looking for our sailboat, we wanted an enclosed head (her requirement), a wheel (my requirement with same comments as Nautiduck), 25 ft in length and 8.5 ft in width (marina size limitations)and the C 250 WK was our choice. We have never regretted it and I wouldn't change it.

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