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Big Enough-The Necessity of a 25' Paradigm

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/21/2009 : 11:21:07

Having just read Sailing Small, being thrilled to the gills with my new to me C-250 and being just angry enough about prevailing mindsets of the yachting community, I wish to open a discussion about the integrity that goes along with “big enough,” while presenting a few opinions of my own

.

First let me say this: I feel that the 250 WK is an extremely competent boat. Yes, I have sailed more capable and much larger vessels. However, as I don’t plan on crossing the Atlantic any time soon, I feel that the boating community has been subjected to a good deal of elitist overkill. I motored in 30+ knots of wind through four foot chop with ease the other day on the way to her summer mooring. Did I have to keep an eye out for how she shouldered the waves? Yes... would I have wanted to sail for a day in these conditions?..no! But I sense that a well handled 250 could withstand significantly more wicked conditions- even if the prudent and wise would well stay ashore. Later on in the weekend I had a great sail with seven aboard with winds gusting over 25 knots, with the mainsail reefed and the 150 genny rolled up to 110. I had to keep my wits about me, but I experienced no weather helm or excessive heel. At many moments we were cruising at more than 6 knts. Back at the mooring, we set up the pop top and gathered around the table and had a lovely meal. After this my family of five and I slept in the boat and felt very well rested the next morning.

Barring true blue water cruisers, why would any normal, coastal cruising family want or need anything bigger? Successful career people now in their eighties I have served, seemed to have been perfectly happy with 20-25 foot boats. Sailing is an amazing activity which connects families, provides a sense of oneness and challenge with creation and connects us to our maritime roots. It should be opened up to most Americans. What purpose does it serve to perpetrate the meg-yacht mindset in a world where fewer and fewer people can actually enjoy the thrill of sailing, or gain the satisfaction of a well planned cruise? I don’t think its healthy for the sport of sailing, and in the end I don’t think it even serves the sailboat industry itself.

The C250 or C25 should be big enough and nice enough for just about anyone. Don’t get me wrong, I have twofootitis as much as the next person, but what can we do to be better advocates for the smaller side of mid-sized cruising boat?

For pics of my family and I sailing, click on the following link: #65532;[url]]http://gallery.me.com/ruachwrights[url]

97 Catalina 250 TR/ WK
Hull #301
Attleboro, MA

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 12:51:17

Well, at least part of it is just having more room and amenities. For instance a 30 footer will have a more serious galley, perhaps a shower with hot and cold pressurized water, a nav station, more private berth, standing headroom, etc. None of these are required to have a good time, to be sure, but for some people these features will add to the enjoyment and/or make longer cruises more practical. Of course they are accompanied by more maintenance and higher costs.

We are very happy with our 250 and love the time we spend on her. We also like the fact that we can trailer her to some amazing cruising grounds that we simply could not sail to in any reasonable amount of time.

As far as what we can do to advocate small boat sailing - I say just go out there and have fun!

When we cruise in the San Juans we and up in the same marinas as the "big boys" and we have just as much fun. Heck, there are places we can get into that they cannot!

Your issue is a good one and not just for boats. As a kid my family traveled all around the country in a 13' travel trailer. We had the times of our lives. Look at the 50' motor-homes these days. Same deal.

In the end it is personal choice. I don't begrudge the big boat owners or the motor-home owners. They made their choice based on what they felt was best for them

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/21/2009 12:55:45

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 13:52:38

I donwsized from a 40 foot motor boat to a Catalina 25. Now my family of 4 went on a year long, 5000 mile cruise in the 40. I wouldn't want to do that in a 25. But I've had far more fun, sailed more miles, and feel that my C25 is just as seaworthy if not more.

When I bought the 25 I wanted the smallest boat that fit my needs, not the largest I could afford.

In many ways I think the C30 or the C34 would be the ideal family coastal cruiser.

My C25 suits me just fine. I've been in some serious weather, nervous and afraid, but she brought me home just fine. I've been 50 miles offshore on a 3 week single handed cruise. I've done grueling double handed ocean races. I've beaten some large expensive boats (and also been the last in many times).

If you read Cruising World (which I don't anymore) you get the feeling that you need a 60 foot boat with 500K in electronics to go out.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:13:06

I, too, went with my C-25 because it fit our needs - small enough to trailer and large enough to cruise. It is a great boat and pretty capable. I concede that later I will go for a 30 -32 for more comfortable longer stays aboard, but for me, I've never cnsidered anything larger.

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
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273 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:26:37

We sail our 25 all over. We even sleep a family of 8 (2 on cockpit cushions) and have had many great multi-day family trips.

I don't think I'll ever get over bigger-boat-itis, but whenever I go looking I come back to my Catalina 25 SK. We love being able to take it out of our lake every once in a while to go explore other lakes on 3 to 7 day vacations. A bigger boat isn't practical to tow or to trailer launch. And when the lake levels drop at the end of a hot summer, I love that swing keel because it gives me an extra 2 1/2 months of sailing after the fixed keel boats have to pull out.

The one upgrade I'd consider is a C 27 with a shoal keel, a new one with the open cabin layout. But that would be just for a little more elbow room. (Anyone know of one for sale? :)

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 15:31:21

ODay 272... STAND UP

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 19:29:54

25' is roughly the limit for a trailerable boat (although it's a little beyond trailer day-sailing). I agree with Frank: 27-28' is the sweet-spot where you have livability below and manageability on the water, even single-handed. The O'Day 272 is one of the best packages for accommodations, performance, and value. The C-27 never quite matched it, although its builder lasted longer. My personal favorite in the category is the Cape Dory 26--6' headroom in a gorgeous teak interior (albeit smaller than the 272), full keel for tracking down-sea, outboard hidden in a lazarette (for the simplicity of a C-25), generous sail plan for better performance than most people think, and those classic Carl Alberg lines that turn heads (although maybe not in Florida).

But remember what Jim Baumgart and others have reported about their competitions in big water... Going to weather, a 30+footer moves much more smoothly and maintains her speed better through seas than a 25. If you're cruising, your progress can be 50% better, and you'll be more relaxed when you get there. I think this is all about use, sailing grounds, and priorities. Coastal cruisers want mid-30s and above... Inland lake sailors don't need that other than as a floating condo. But floating condos can be nice, too! To each his own.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 20:21:45

Whoa. I moved UP to the 25 from a 16 foot daysailer.

Sure, I'd love to be able to stand up in the cabin, but I can take a long 3 day weekend and go 50 miles each way.

If I were to move up to a 30 footer, it would probably cost me over twice what I paid for the Cat 25, and the cost of ownership would be at least 1.5 to 2 times my current budget.

Nope, looking up the cost-benefit curve, I think I'm at a local maximum with the C25

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 20:36:57

Now, if someone would build a 34' LOA 8'6" beam 6'2" headroom, 2 full size double berth, swinger then ...... mmmmmmmmm!

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 20:48:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Now, if someone would build a 34' LOA 8'6" beam 6'2" headroom, 2 full size double berth, swinger then ...... mmmmmmmmm!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Here's a variation on that theme...

http://www.containeryachts.com/

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 23:27:45

I've loved my C25 for eleven years now. Vicki and I have sailed almost the length of the Chesapeake in her. She's a great boat.

But I'm looking at a 30 footer now. I'm 6'3". I keep bumping my head below. I'm not as limber as I used to be. Vicki and I have to crawl over each other to get out of the converted dinette in the middle of the night. She's too claustrophobic to sleep in the vee or the quarter berth. The head seems smaller than it was eleven years ago -- or maybe I'm wider. I want air conditioning when we're sleeping at a marina dock in August, and the Cruisair in the forward hatch is more of a pain to wrestle every year. I want side decks I can actually walk on when I go forward. I want to be able to take another adult couple for a sail in the cockpit and not have to shift positions every time we tack.

I absolutely agree that the trend towards bigger and bigger boats is outrageous. In sailing magazines, boats in the mid-30 foot range are described as "starter boats." A Sunfish is a starter boat: I expect a 30 footer to be my terminal boat. The C25/250 is brilliant, but that doesn't make it perfect for all circumstances.

As for 34' swingers with headroom and two double berths, Pearson and Tartan did that years ago!

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 04:46:44

Its all personal preference and your mind set. I got my C250 because that was the only size slip that was available in a 50 mile radius, at least for the next 5+ years, at that time.
I have little regrets. I also love driving my Prius to work and not a huge SUV or other such large vehicle with only one person in it, like so many do .
Steve A

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 05:01:13

Thanks for starting this thread Ruachwrights. I have owned my C25 for for 25 years. I bought her new in 1984 and although I could have afforded a bigger boat most of that time(in fact, right now there are many big boats available at bargin basement prices where I live) I have always felt that the C-25 is the right size boat for the type sailing that I enjoy. I have actively sailed on 22 sloops,100 schooners, 200 foot square riggers and everything in between; but for the me, the C-25 is the perfect ballance of comfort,(and discomfort, because, if all you were interested in was comfort,you would stay ashore)cost, ease of maintenance and responsive handeling. Bigger boats have their place and make sense if you cruise long distances or sail in rougher conditions. When it gets really rough no boat feels big enough. I have been on club cruises in 30+mph winds with a deeply reefed main and a storm jib while larger boats (with younger crews) were sailing with no main and only a little bit of jib rolled out. I do arrive at destinations, after a sail like that, with a few more bumps and bruises than the guys in the bigger boats, and I'm a little more wind blown and disheveled but the aches and pains disapear after a couple of beers and the feeling of accomplishment lasts forever. I agree with you that the "bigger for the sake of bigger" attitude ultimately hurts the sport of sailing. It should be a choice of the best tool for the job at hand and then learning how to use that tool most effectively.

Edited by - Renzo on 05/22/2009 05:06:03

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 07:35:51

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK, it is wider than you want but I bet the Highway Patrol won't notice.

Otherwise this meets your specs and is my dream boat.

Check out the specs. [url="http://www.seawardyachts.com/32rk.html"]Seaward 32RK[/url]

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 08:14:02

The Seaward 26RK is also a very nice boat, but oh so pricey! I know 2 people who own one and both love them.

Edited by - on

KenDavis
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 11:00:12

The 26 has an interesting retracting rudder that could be copied for a cat25

And they are made in Stuart, Fl. My childhood hometown.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 11:01:51

I'm actually at a boat crossroads. I've owned my C25 for 20 years, also purchased new. I've done a lot of crewed and single-handed racing and cruising on Lake Superior and on our inland lake which is connected by canal to Lake Superior. At age 60 and close to retirement I'm thinking that I want to sail farther afield on Superior and the other Great Lakes. I'm thinking Catalina 28. Catalina 28s are very hard to find in the used boat market though.

On the other hand, maintenance and repair for a short sailing season is starting to wear on me and I'm thinking, why not trailor a Catalina 22 to other places and sail when I get there. Plus, maintenance time and effort is reduced and I won't have to pay for and maintain a 3/4 ton gas hog. Sounds appealing to me.

Thus the cross road quandry.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 12:23:20

Al, can I have your 3/4 ton gas hog?

Simplification does have an appeal doesn't it? I can see your quandary. For me a C30 or C34 would be awfully tempting if we had big water like you. On the other hand that is a lot more work. We moved up from a C22. They are very nice boats but they do have a lot less room inside for cruising. Also, my experience is that the 1986 C22 was more maintenance than our 2000 C250. I think age of the boat has as much to do as size when it comes to maintenance. Sometimes I think a 15' daysailer would be nice at the lake and then use the saved $ to do charters in the BVIs, etc. I think that is a route some sailors go and then there is basically no maintenance. Whatever works for you is the right answer.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 14:14:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ruachwrights
 Barring true blue water cruisers, why would any normal, coastal cruising family want or need anything bigger?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Although you can cruise in our boats, I wouldn't exactly classify our boats as being cruisers. Weekenders, yeah. Daysailers, absolutely. Cruisers? Not so much.

I've went on a few weeklong cruises with my family of four (one time we brought a niece along with us) and it was like living inside a minivan. Oh, we have great memories from those cruises for sure and remember them fondly, but after the novelty wore off and reality set in, thoughts of future excursions now rarely enter my mind.

Regarding new boats, I totally get why 30 footers are now becoming the starting point for those who want to do more than just daysail. If I'm going to pay that much money for a boat, I want some comfort.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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844 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 14:40:24

"Barring true blue water cruisers, why would any normal, coastal cruising family want or need anything bigger?"

Because I like to stand up? We had our C25 for 12 years. My wife liked sailing, but not "camping" and wanted some creature comforts, like refrigeration, hot water, and stretch room. She also liked a higher freeboard. I was disinterested in a larger boat because I felt happy taking my motor in to have it serviced, and was concerned I couldn't "learn diesel". Never had any issue with singlehanding a bigger boat. Eleven years later we're still ecstatic we bought our C34, but fondly recall all our great times on our C22 and C25, and still try to "help out" a bit on this 'site.

The "elitist" arguments against bigger also could well be misconstrued in reverse as in "snobbery."

The trick is to find a boat you like, set it up right for your uses, care for it, and clean, maintain and sail it.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 16:24:21

I think the cruise-ability of our boats has a lot to do with four factors:

How many on board
How enthused are they about the trip
Where you cruise
Your level of patience

We have done two 2-week cruises. On the first it was Pat and I and on the second we were joined by our 25 year old daughter. We had a great time on both occasions and never felt confined.

Part of that is where we cruise. In the San Juans there are many destinations in a relatively small area. Basically day sailing with lots of marinas and marine state parks and coves to stay at. We stop early in the afternoon, get a spot and then head to shore for hiking, sightseeing, dining, whatever. The ability to get off the boat and go exploring helps make these boats work fine for cruising.

I could easily go a month.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/23/2009 08:34:14

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 20:52:21

So it all depends! Everyone's solution is right, and there's no point in suggesting otherwise.

Edited by - on

Windhover
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 05:53:55

Interesting thread. We daysail and weekend on our C25 with 5 children under 13 years old. It can sure feel like a 12' boat with everyone aboard and the wind dies down... But it sure fits us well. We still look at >30' boats, and eventually will move up, but its not urgent. We love our 25. Our only complaint could be the tiller takes up precious cockpit seating space, but we work around that.
Let me thank everyone on this forum, especially for the technical advice offered. I feel as if I've learned more here from the association about my boat in the short time I've been a member than if I had been sailing it for years without the advice.

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 08:41:11

heres a couple sailing shots :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWCmIEQE6s4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLxeCSIPIZs

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millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2009 : 08:46:04

I've always thought of this as in comparasin to camping on land- there are those who camp in 40' motorhomes for 2, and families of 6 that tent it from a mini-van (this is how my wife and I grew up). We used to cruise w/ two small children on a Santana 20 w/ 4' headroom, as that was all the boat we could afford. It wasn't comfortable, but we were on the water! I thnik of cruising in the C-25 as camping in a VW Bus w/ a Pop Top. And a smaller boat is oh soo much more fun to sail!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2009 : 09:35:32

We have 2-1/2 adults and a kid-and-a-half. You can decide whether the 11 yr old or the 1 yr old counts as the half.

We make due, and there is plenty of room for everyone. I still lust after something bigger, and have promised SWMBO that if we move up it will be a big jump. I don't believe in making a series of 2ft hops, and always wanting something bigger.

Right from the get-go our premise was that the C-25 was a boat to learn on. Whether the learning was maintenance, saililng skills, or mentality. I think that our choice was good. The boat fits that bill wonderfully. When I screw things up, there is a strong community here to steer me right. If I break something, there is a source for new parts, if things go terribly wrong, the boat is a secure platform to execute a recovery from, and if we decide that this just isn't for us, we can resell since there is demand for the boats.

For a first sailboat, I don't think you can go far wrong with a C-25.

I think the comparison to camping is valid, but there is a group you left out. We were an interior wilderness camping family, which meant everything had to fit into 2 packs in a canoe. We have sleeping bags that we can compress down to the size of your fist, and lightweight gear etc. that cost us a fortune to equip ourselves with.

For what we bought the specialized gear for, we could have bought a really nice trailer, but we chose to cover ground rather than go posh. I see our boats kinda like that too. Some folks have outfitted their little Catalinas to specialize in exactly what they want them to do, others have left them more or less stock. We are sortof middle of the road. It is nice though to micro-camp inth etiny spots that the big boys will never see, and still be able to haunt their cruising grounds. It reminds me of canoeing into a fly-in fishing camp and trying to buy some Ice at the dock.

All the staff were trying to chase us away since their clients had paid big bucks to get to a lake that could only be accessed by air. Here we were in a couple canoes with smiles on our faces and stringers full of fish. Some of the clients weren't very happy. Sometimes small is just fine.

Edited by - on

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