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Winches ?

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Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Initially Posted - 06/08/2009 : 10:29:48

My 86 has the standard issue (lewar ?) single direction winches at the cockpit for the Genoa. I also have a cam cleat by each winch located between the winch and spring line cleat. Both winches turn in the same direction (clockwise) which seems strange to me. It seems they should both turn to the outside. As a result one of the cam cleats (left side) is almost unusable. Is there a way to change the direction of the rotation on one winch?

I usually only wrap the line around the winch once then use the cam cleats to hold the line. What are others doing? How many wraps? Any other techniques? I also have never used the winch handle on those winches either. This make for a chore when the sheet is loaded but Ikinda like the workout...

I purchased a pair of the blue winchers which go on top of the winches and claim to make them self tailing. Haven't figured out how to make those work like they should either. Gimmick or effective???

Thanks

1986 C-25 FK Tall Rig
"Blue Nose"
Mobjack Bay, Virginia

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 10:43:08

no, all winches turn the same direction.

Edited by - on

Rich G
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 11:59:07

All winches turn clockwise.

I usually wrap twice unless I'm in a particularly strong wind and need more mechanical advantage.

Using the winch handle is often essential to get a proper trim, especially when close hauled.

Edited by - Rich G on 06/08/2009 12:00:39

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 12:13:29

Lewmar, one of the most respected names in sailing hardware. You must wrap two to three times to engage the friction on the winch drum, more wraps does not equal more mechanical advantage, just more friction so the tailing goes well. If you have to pull on the tail you need to put one more wrap on the winch. Winches have been around a long time, learn the way they are supposed to be used, personal opinion has no relevance. If the cam cleat on one side was located incorrectly then move it, cleats are aligned to the way the sheet feeds off the winch, period, aesthetics have nothing to do with cleat location. Something as simple as a winch actually requires years to fully appreciate. If you "play" the headsail by hand then one to two wraps is right, if you grind the sail in and cleat it then two to three wraps is usually right. Do you sail with gloves? I never sail without gloves, you relationship with a winch will be completely different depending on whether or not you wear gloves.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 12:47:44

The winch should be doing all the work, not your hands. I do two wraps for light winds, three for moderate, and four wraps when the rail's in the water. If you use the appropriate amount of turns, the tail can be held by a five year old without gloves.

Edited by - dlucier on 06/08/2009 12:48:02

Blue Nose
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:09:38

Is there any damage (or negative reason) that could be caused by doing the work with your hands vs a winch handle? I like to keep the tiller against my body while pulling the tail - that way I don't have to get up on the winch and let go of the tiller. Like you said - to each his own.

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Ben
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:10:54

I use winchers on my Lewmar 7s for jib sheets. They are advertised as "self tailers", but they most definitely ARE NOT. In spite of that, that's not why I use them and I absolutely love them. I don't have anything but horn cleats, but the winchers allow me to "cleat" the sheet onto the winchers themselves, allowing them to be released quickly if necessary. And they always hold. I've never had one let loose on me.

I love them because they work for cleating easily with quick release available, and because I didn't have to drill into my boat and install additional hardware.

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Blue Nose
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:22:21

Ben,
How are you loading up the winch with your winchers? I have the same onmine but haven't used them effectively yet. how many wraps are you putting on the winch? What is your technique?

Edited by - on

Ben
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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:32:32

Blue,

For my winchers, I put three full wraps on starting from the bottom of the winch drum, then load the final wrap into the channel on the wincher starting from about the 3 or 4 o'clock position, then I snug the line all the way around inside the channel. Usually the line comes back out of the channell around the 1 or 2 o'clock position (where the bow is 12 o'clock and the stern 6 o'clock). I think with the winchers you need to have the drum full, thus the 3 wraps, for the winchers to work; because they rely on the final, top-most wrap to hold the line entering the wincher channel in the proper angle to maintain the hold. I'm sure the line width is also important. I think my jib sheet is 3/8th inch, but with my winchers I think I might be able to go a size down which I plan on doing someday.

A picture here would really be worth a thousand words; I hope my explaination makes sense.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:32:56

Off the top of my head...
I believe the issue with Winchers is that people inherit them and never see the instructions. I think that they way they are supposed to work is not intuitive, if I remember right the way they work is to wrap enough wraps until you are up against the bottom of the Wincher but it will usually only work for a couple of cranks and will need attention; and the inner track is for cleating, you do not grind with the line in the ring.

edit: "The simple operation works when the line is sheeted under load causing the coils to climb up the drum and are then gripped by the underside of the rubber body. When the sail is trimmed, cleating is achieved by locking the line into the ribbed groove."

Edited by - pastmember on 06/08/2009 13:35:09

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:49:32

Frank - that has been my expereince too. they only work for a couple turns at best then need attention which makes them worthless. Who can mess with an tangled mess while tacking under load?? not me! I am either doing something wrong or they are just another good idea. :o)

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jerlim
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:59:25

Frank - that is so right - I inherited my winchers and have never successfully sussed how to make them work...I get it now and will see if I can get any use of them this w/e. Thanks guys

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 15:39:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 Is there any damage (or negative reason) that could be caused by doing the work with your hands vs a winch handle? I like to keep the tiller against my body while pulling the tail - that way I don't have to get up on the winch and let go of the tiller. Like you said - to each his own.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">"To each his own" only goes so far. There's a right way and a wrong way to do things, and, before you start forming your own unique way of doing things, you should first learn how to do them the seamanlike way. Seamanship is all about knowing how to rig and sail a boat in the most functional, efficient, thoughtful way possible. Good seamanship reduces your exertion of energy so that, when the going is tough and you need your strength, you'll have some in reserve. It also is the safer way of doing things. When you get into heavy weather, everything you do gets much more difficult, and, if you never learn the seamanlike way of doing things, you won't be able to tack and gybe and do all the things necessary to sail yourself out of a bad situation.

That having been said, I think it's fair to say that most of us don't always do everything in the most seamanlike manner. For example, sometimes we let the boat heel excessively, even though we know that's not efficient, but sometimes it's just fun.

Actually, the most efficient way to tail a winch on a 25' boat is to use the winch and your hands, and you should ordinarily only need to use a winch handle for the final trim, if at all. The key to it is to coordinate the steering of the boat so that you don't load up the jib on the new tack until the jibsheet is hauled in all the way, and then choreograph your hand movements so that you can get all the line in with no wasted motions, and within the very limited amount of time you have.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/08/2009 15:51:00

pastmember
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 16:16:19

Steve, do you wear gloves? I do what you do, I haul by hand and only use a handle if needed. I think the C25 singlehanded tack with tiller between the legs is a beautiful ballet. (You can't have the tiller between your legs if you are using a handle!)

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 18:45:27

I only use gloves when raising the main. Once that's done, off they come.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 02:49:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Steve, do you wear gloves? I do what you do, I haul by hand and only use a handle if needed. I think the C25 singlehanded tack with tiller between the legs is a beautiful ballet. (You can't have the tiller between your legs if you are using a handle!)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I wear gloves whenever racing, even when at the wheel, except sometimes in light air. When cruising I usually do the same, but sometimes not if we'll be on the same tack for long periods of time. If you ever have to release a line under heavy load, and can't get your hand away from it soon enough, you'll get a nasty rope burn in an instant. Either the mainsheet or a jibsheet can burn you.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/09/2009 02:56:53

HeelinPatrick
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Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 09:21:04

I inherited my winchers, didn't like them at first, but only had horn cleats as an alternative. Not wanting to drill into fiberglass, I started playing with the winchers. Now, definitely like them, although a cam or V-cleat would be nice to have just for additional choices, but don't plan to add them any time soon.

'Tricks' I've learned, no more than two wraps before cleating off into the wincher, because line can get tangled otherwise if quickly released, which probably goes for any winch. I try to get at least a half a turn's worth of line into the wincher to make sure it holds.

Probably where folks go wrong, and where I would go wrong before learning via trial and error, is can't really pull on the sheet when it's in the wincher, it's better to unwrap, then sheet in. Additionally, can only tighten on the sheet an additional 1/3 turn or so once the line is in the wincher, via winch handle. If more adjustment is needed, need to take the line out of the wincher. This means unwraping it, sheeting in, then rewrapping it (unwrapping, rather than just popping it down being the key point). Some might not like them, but to each their own.

One nice benefit to winchers, is that that it provides another way to final trim the sheet. If not blowing real hard, I can just grab the top of the winch and turn a little. This is a quick way to sheet in a little, without having to use winch handle, or reposition to really pull on the line. And can look at the sail as you are doing it. This can be done even when it is too hard to sheet in by pulling. Just another trick to add in the bag.

I've never read any instructions, I'm curious to see what they say is the proper way.

Edited by - on

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 11:06:23

Patrick you can add the cam cleats very easily with almost no risk to the boat. The cam cleats will be located directly over the storage pocket on each side so drilling through is simple and installation is a breeze. I just replaced mine and it was easy! Now I want to move one since the original installation must have been done for looks not function. When in the correct location they make working the sheets very fast. You can do most of the work seated with the tiller in hand or braced against your body. The "Ballet" as Frank calls it!

Edited by - Blue Nose on 06/09/2009 11:10:04

pastmember
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Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 14:34:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by HeelinPatrick
 .

I've never read any instructions, I'm curious to see what they say is the proper way.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Read my post

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 10:09:27

Blue Nose,
similar to your situation, the cam cleat on the starboard side of my boat did not line up correctly. You should not need to drill 2 new holes. Just remove one screw, probably the the outside one, and rotate the cleat so that it lines up correctly with the winch (i.e. perpendicular to the sheet coming from the winch), mark the spot, and drill a new hole. fill the old hole with caulk or epoxy and secure the cleat in the new position.
As stated above, virtually all winches turn in the same direction. Otherwise, you would have to specify port or starboard side when ordering a winch, and a manufacturer would have to build twice as many models.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 10:35:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ...virtually all winches turn in the same direction. Otherwise, you would have to specify port or starboard side when ordering a winch, and a manufacturer would have to build twice as many models.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and experienced sailors would go crazy on your boat. A sailor knows that you always wrap a winch clockwise, period--often there's no time to figure out which way to do it. It would be like reversing the gas and brake pedals in some cars.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/10/2009 10:36:54

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 11:07:21

What size are the Lewmar Winches on the C 25? What type of maintence is required on them??

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 11:41:57

#7
There are Lewmar cleaning kits, follow the directions.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 11:49:15

Maintenance on Lewmar winches is surprisingly easy, and infrequently needed.

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Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 08:17:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">WINCHERS:
A specially designed rubber moulding which fits over the top of standard winches converting them to self tailing. Easy to fit and available in four sizes to suit most winches. The simple operation works when the line is sheeted under load causing the coils to climb up the drum and are then gripped by the underside of the rubber body. When the sail is trimmed, cleating is achieved by locking the line into the ribbed groove.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

According to the instructions for the use of winchers, the groove is used as a cleat. The actual self-tailing is suppose to be possible by the pressure caused by the underside of the wincher capturing the top coil. If you cleat it in the groove you will lose the self-tailing feature. That is assuming it works at all.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 08:23:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 ...That is assuming it works at all.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I bought some... They didn't--at all. My sheets were too thick.

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