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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

water through keel cable hose

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Eric Dove
1st Mate

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37 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/17/2002 : 11:50:42

Hey everyone....

I have an '83 C25 swing keel. When lowering the keel, water sloshes up through the cable hose(and subsequently all over the berth cushion). Not gallons or anything, but a lot more than a sprinkle...probably a cup or two (kinda hard to visually measure splashing water). It doesn't happen under way or when lowering the keel. It also seems a little worse if there's some chop. I've tried lowering it slower, which helps a little bit, but not a lot. All parts seem to be of good condition, but this doesn't seem right. Anyone else experienced this? Is it just a normal thing and is there any remedy?

Eric

Eric Dove on Adelaide

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frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 12:28:04

Eric

I have noticed a similar occurence on my 84. I plan on doing an inspection and complete retrofit of the cable, turning ball, and shims while on the hard this fall.

What i did to avoid water on the aft cushions was to make out of 1/4 plywood w/ moulding around and sealed a splash guard that is basically a rectangle w/ a cutout for the PVC to go around. It slides from the aft foward and does a good job protectiong the cushions. When dirty i simply slide it out and clean it. Sorry cant post a picture (waiting for santa to get me a digital camera)

Frank Rich
84 C25 Sk

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 13:49:39

How long is your cable hose? I have a piece of PVC that extends to just below the winch, and I don't think I've ever had any water come that far up.

Brooke

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 14:26:04

Hi Eric,

Usedto take an old sink stopper of the appropriate size and cut a slit half way across the top and slide it over the cable and into the top of the cable tube. Duck tape also works. Don't laugh they're using it to remove warts now. E H !!!

Val on "CALISTA" # 3936

Val Bisagni

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Eric Dove
1st Mate

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37 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 14:41:25

Thanks for all the quick responses....to answer one question, the hose and the pipe extend right up to the winch, so that shouldn't be the issue. I was just looking at some schematics of the parts down there, and I'm starting to think maybe the turning ball is the issue. I would think, in theory, if that thing was in tact not only should it act as a sheave for the cable, but it appears to be a fairly close fit it the thru-hull. Basically being a sphere inside a pipe with only a groove for the cable to roll through, I can't imagine how that much water is sloshing past it. Has anyone ever inspected and/or replaced that part?

If that doesn't turn out to be in fault, I like the idea of the sink stopper...that would do the trick!

Eric Dove on Adelaide

Edited by - Eric Dove on 10/17/2002 14:43:03

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1774 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 15:04:38

I'm starting to think maybe the turning ball is the issue. I would think, in theory, if that thing was in tact not only should it act as a sheave for the cable, but it appears to be a fairly close fit it the thru-hull. Basically being a sphere inside a pipe with only a groove for the cable to roll through, I can't imagine how that much water is sloshing past it. Has anyone ever inspected and/or replaced that part? - Eric

Hi Eric,

I replaced the turning ball not too long ago when I replaced the swing keel cable. In my case, the turning ball had frozen in place, and the cable was slowly wearing a flat groove in one side of the ball.

At first, I couldn't figure out how to remove it (it was obvious that the ball was the original equipment, and previous owners hadn't figured out how to remove it either). The ball is held in place by a stainless steel shaft that acts as an axle for the ball to turn on. The SS shaft is normally held in place by the reinforced rubber tube that goes over the end of the through-hull pipe, and that's all. In my case though, there was a bunch of fiberglass covering the end of the through-hull pipe, and there was no way to remove the shaft/ball without grinding off the fiberglass first (you can use a Dremel tool, grinder, sander, or a file with lots of elbow grease).

Once you can see the ends of the shaft, it is easy to punch it out and remove the turning ball (the ball is going to obey gravity and fall through the bottom of the through-hull pipe, unless you figure out a way to hold it with long-nosed pliers or something similar). As you surmised, the ball takes up quite a bit of room inside the pipe ... for the life of me, I can't figure out how you're getting so much water through there. If the ball were missing, you would slowly be sawing your boat in half every time you raised or lowered the keel.

If it has been a while since your cable was replaced, maybe now would be a good time to do that ... you could replace the ball and see if you can fix your water problem at the same time.

'Hope that helps ... good luck!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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Eric Dove
1st Mate

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37 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 15:15:18

Sounds like a worthwhile project. The boat is new to me(4 months), so I'm not sure how long it's been since the cable was replaced. The previous owners had it for 2 years I think, and I don't think they did anything much to it. It's now officially on my Winter list.

Which brings me to another question about the keel itself. But I think I'll make another post for that.

Thanks!

Eric Dove on Adelaide

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 15:30:17

Hi Eric,

I went digging and I found the old turning ball and shaft that I removed from my swing keel assembly. If you look closely, you can see where my old cable was slowly slicing through the left side of the tuning ball.

The stainless steel shaft is in the foreground. Notice there are no threads on the ends, so the only thing that holds it in place is the rubber tube covering the top of the through-hull pipe. BTW, don't be confused by the way I arranged the two pieces in the photo ... the shaft goes through the top and bottom of the ball in a north-south fashion.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce36b3127cce9160663eb7830000001410" border=0>

'Sounds like you are in the same predicament I'm in ... the previous owner of my boat did nothing but abuse it for the two years he had it. There is no telling how long that cable had been on there, and, like I said earlier, the turning ball had never been replaced.

BTW, replacing the cable is not all that hard to do ... you can get all of the parts from Catalina Direct, and they're not too expensive. The hardest part of the whole job is winding the new cable on the drum ... that's good for lots of X-rated swearing.

Good luck!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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Eric Dove
1st Mate

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37 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 15:44:17

Thanks a lot for digging that up! It's helpful to get a visual of it. So is the pin just held by two holes in the side of the rubber tube? I guess it'll be obvious once I get in there.

I'd also be interested to know how you went about lowering the keel to do this stuff......I submitted another post about that a little while ago.

Thanks again!

Eric Dove on Adelaide

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1774 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 17:22:57

... is the pin just held by two holes in the side of the rubber tube? - Eric

Not quite ... it is held in position by two holes in the side of the through-hull pipe. The rubber pipe is solid so that it won't leak. Catalina Direct will sell you two SS hose clamps and 3M 4200 to seal the rubber pipe onto the through-hull pipe and fiberglass "volcano" so that you don't get any leaking there.

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 20:48:52

I am the "futhest" thing from an expert on this topic BUT I can report that the video on projects from Catalina Direct, which is listed in their c25 owners handbook aka catalog, shows how to do it on the Cat 22 and has a neat way to capture the ball in the pipe when replacing it, basically you punch out the pin with a phiullips screwdriver and tip the ball up to remove it, leaving the screwdriver in place, and then slip the new ball on the scredriver shaft, and then withdraw the screwdriver shaft whilst pressing the ball axle shaft in from the other side. Looks easy in the video and is probably filled with Murphy possibilities in real life, but there it is, godspeed, ron c25 sr sk Orion #2343 SW FL

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Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 21:26:35

Eric,

It's perfectly normal to get some water through the cable pipe when lowering the keel and when sailing in rough weather. A proper length pipe extends to the base of the winch drum. I've also noticed that some rainwater that leaks through the companionway hatch ends up at the base of the pipe. We keep a sponge down there and simply ring it out once in a while, although most of the time we simply allow evaporation to run its course. The rest of our bilge is dry (just lucky--but we don't have any leaks).

We overhauled the keel last year, replacing everything except the keel itself. The water intrusion through the pipe occured before and after the rebuild. When we removed our original turning ball, it was still in good condition.

I'm fairly confident that getting some water through the pipe is simply a design characteristic of the swing keel. I would definitely consider a thorough inspection of the keel and the lowering mechanism and replacing any suspect parts.

Best of Luck,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

IndyJim
Navigator

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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 22:38:32

Hey Skippers!

Boy, I sure got an ear and eye full on this discussion. I've owned my C-25 for almost a year now (still a newbie) and wondered if water was a regular occurance through that pipe. I never have water come up when lowering the keel or even in rough water. But I get a little when raising the keel and ALOT when I put my outboard in reverse! I guess the reverse thrust shoots up the pipe. Am I the Lone Ranger here or just a typical swing keep skipper?

By the way, my bilge is dry as a bone, so the evaporation/sponge thing does the trick. But I'm going to have to have my uphostery cleaned because of the musty smell from the moisture.

Approximately how much are the materials/parts to replace the swing hardware? And don't you have to have jack stands or a sling to make those repairs? I'm sure it can't be done on my trailer. Maybe I'll just take it to my sailboat shop and let them do the honors. My swinger works great but this site has made me paranoid about that puppy breaking. Since I don't know when the P.O. last replaced it, I want some peace of mind!

IndyJim
"Itza Dew Sea"
#8425 SK/TR

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CatalinaGuy
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2002 : 10:34:46

I have the same problem as IndyJim - I get a LOT of water up the pipe when the motor is in reverse. I'm pulling her out of the water in a few weeks for a complete exterior refinish job and will investigate the problem then and report back what I find to this thread.

Has anyone else figured out what's causing this water shooting out of keel cable hose in reverse problem?

Doug

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2002 : 11:02:11

<center>Water Up Cable In Reverse</center>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Has anyone else figured out what's causing this water shooting out of keel cable hose in reverse problem?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>How about this:

In reverse, the engine pushes exhaust gases, and/or air the prop has sucked in, up under the hull. The gases rise into the swing keel trunk. From there, the only means of upward escape is the cable path into the boat. The hose acts like a coffee purculator, bringing liquid up with the air/fumes. Sound plausable?

-- Leon Sisson

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JD van Wyhe
Deckhand

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22 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2002 : 19:19:03

Hey guys,
Just logged on today and saw this thread. I've also had water come in while lowering the keel and it finally occured to me what's happening. When you launch the boat, there is a large pocket of air trapped in the upper reccess of the keel trunk. Then as the keel is lowered, this air is displaced and force out. The displaced air travels along the keel trunk depression... back... until it reaches the keel cable opening. The air bubbles up though the keel opening, slopping water.
Now I just wrap a rag, loosely around the cable to catch the water.
What do you think?
JD van Wyhe
C25 Marea #139

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Ellis Bloomfield
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2002 : 22:47:43

When I replaced my cable, support bolts, turning ball and hose last year, the old hose had a silicone plug about two inches long in it to prevent or minimize spash. I put the plug in the new one and there is very little water. The silicone has a slot that the cable runs through.

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