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C250 owners-forgive me

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LOREN SOUERS
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Initially Posted - 10/17/2002 : 16:53:57

I had the great pleasure for the first time in my life to visit the U.S. Sailboat Show in Annapolis, MD this last weekend. I recommend it to anyone who loves sailboats. Hundreds of sailboats were there to check out, and lots of equipment for sailing. My wife and I could not resist the T-shirt for boaters, "Break Out Another Thousand," with the B.O.A.T. in large red letters.
I also had the opportunity, for the first time, to see a Catalina 250, presumably a 2003 model. What a disappointment!!

1. Headroom- If I thought I had no headroom in my 1985 C25, I now consider myself blessed.
2. Finish- The thing is all plastic. Hardly any wood, let alone any teak.
3. Cabin layout- I cannot imagine a dumber cabin layout.
4. Deck- Forget about walking forward without steppin up and over the cabin.
5. Lifelines- I can't remember exactly, but the lifelines now are quite restricting.
6. Trailerability- I guess for giving up all of the above, it now is trailerable.

I could go on, but you have the picture. I hope this thing doesn't cost much, because I can't believe it cost much to build. Needless to say,I wouldn't think of buying one. There are a couple really nice "pocket cruisers" on the market, but I am sure they must cost more than this.

All in all, I'll be much happier to be sailing on my 1985 Catalina 25, which, if not the richest boat on the lake, is certainly a world better than its replacement.

Candidly speaking,
Loren E. Souers Jr.,
Nimue, The Lady of the Lake

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 16:59:56

Man, I'm gonna monitor this thread!

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 17:00:00

I have a friend who loves the 250 and every time we go a boat show he goes bananas when we come to the 250 (along with several other bigger boats).

I try to steer him away from the 250, to the 25 but he just doesn't want to get it. the idea of new is probably important to him.

I think my reaction to the 250 is that the compromises made in design were not the ones I would have wanted made in my boat.

I too would not buy one.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk

Edited by - on

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Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 18:09:43

WEELLLL Loren,,, I'll be the first to go where angels fear to tread.
Are you married to a blond? My wife is a brunette....matter of choice , I prefer brunettes, wouldn't even be interested in dating or getting to know a blond. Some persons like lexus, it has leather seats, some extra bells and whistles. I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me, it's just an asian toyota in a tuxedo. Matter of personal choice. I had a boat with the richness of teak. I hate refinishing that crap, and at my age I don't have the time or desire to treat it properly, so I own a C250, and don't have to. I probably can spend 3 days more a year sailing than you, because your busy cleaning and prepping the teak. Headroom....what good is headroom if the boat is narrow, and has more teak walls to preserve, matter of opinion. I like the fiberglass, wipes off with a clean damp towel and is light, makes the c250 look open whereas the c25 looks dark and enclosed. I don't require that "in the womb feeling"
The cabin is perfect, I can stand and cook, I can sit and read, and I can remove the seat back and lay down comfortably with the brunette. If you've been following recent threads, there is a major complaint that c25 owners find the v-berth quite constricting, not my problem. Matter of opinion ! I may be 54 years old but I'm not too old to step up 14" to walk across the deck. From my rooftop I can reach anything I need to sail. From the catwalk of a c25 you can't reach anything until you climb up on the roof! The lifelines could be at least 4" taller, I'll give you that one.
Yes the pocket cruisers you allude to are more expensive, almost twice as much as a c250, and although they're great for bay and coastal sailing, they would be a total waste of money for lake sailing.
Most of the owners don't see their c250 as a pure sailing vessel, if that were the case we would own olsens or capris. We look at our acquisition as a water going Motor home, a party boat that will sail well, and a small but very comfortable family cruiser for persons who aren't endowed with endless streams of time or money.
If I wanted the boat that you describe, I certanly wouldn't buy a Catalina 25.....I would buy a C310, or the new C350, or more reasonbly evn a modest mid 80's Catalina 30 would fit the bill.
It would have been more appropriate for you to have said " Hey guys, I saw my first C250, but I still like the features of the older c25's"
People buy the c250 because they love the looks, features, ease of trailorability, ease of mast raising,sailing, and a whole lot more. Not as you may assume, that they can't afford what you like.

GClarke..Very pleased for 3 years with my C250 wb...left coast

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 18:37:59

Steve S. & Bren - forgive me for this, but...

"I think my reaction to the 250 is that the compromises made in design were not the ones I would have wanted made in my boat."

I have to agree with Don. In fact I find even more problems with its design than Don mentions. Having said that, we have to realize that there are "different strokes for different folks" - the C250 would not fit my needs one iota, and there are many for whom the C25 would not fit their bill.
Derek, deliriously happy with "This Side Up" C25TRFK #2262

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 21:53:55

Tick...Tick...Tick......

Kaaaa BOOOOOOOM!

"GENERAL QUARTERS...GENERAL QUARTERS...All Hands Man Your Battlestations...GENERAL QUARTERS!"

This topic isn't for the squeamish! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Wildly Ecstatic with 'North Star'
a far superior 1980 C25 #2151
SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 10/18/2002 00:50:03

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 22:27:41

Before I bought my C25, I owned a Venture 25 that was designed as an affordable, no frills, lightweight, easily trailered, low maintenance sailboat. The interior was an expanse of white fiberglass that you could hose down to clean and the exterior was as no frills as you could get. Even with it's bland, functional design, I still loved that boat because it was my first boat, but I also lusted over the boats on the pages of Cruising World and Sail with their teak filled cabins and old world nautical saltiness. When I went to look at a C25 that was for sale, I was mesmerized by the abundance of teak and character this boat exuded(as compared to my rather plain Venture). Solid teak hatchboards instead of plastic, teak veneered bulkheads instead of formica on particleboard, real wood ladder and not a molded-in step,...etc, the C25, to me, looked closer to a Herreshoff designed wooden classic than a production line piece of plastic. Anyway, it was love at first sight so I bought her and then said goodbye to my Venture.

Now we all know that the Macgregor/Venture boats are pretty much at the bottom of the sailboat food chain and that is fine because that is how they are designed and marketed. My old Venture(Macgregor) 25 doesn't even compare to my C25 in both aesthetics and sailing ablility, in fact even though they are of the same vintage, they are "night and day". Now it appears the current products from Catalina and Macgregor are getting closer and closer in design/aesthetics to each other and instead of being "night and day", the comparison is more like "dawn and dusk" and I don't know if that's a good thing! <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Wildly Ecstatic with 'North Star'
1980 C25 #2151
SR/FK

Edited by - on

Cat25wannab
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Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 22:53:02

thinking... this thread is no place for a newbie...<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Only thing I found curious... is why a C250 owner would be in a C25 specific forum? ... just curious...

Dennis
(don't hit the newbie... he knows nothing!)

Edited by - on

bren737
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 00:10:15

Loren,

Wow. . . I hadn't visited the c25 forum in quite awhile! Maybe I should make it a more regular stop! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> I don't ever recall a post in the 250 forum with such demeaning opinions of the 25. I ditto Gclarke's analogies in reference to differences in styles and desires. I can understand and appreciate the differences in the two boats, but while they are different, one is not inferior to the other (and neither are their respective owners (in spite of Steve and Derek's on-going, good-natured diatribes)). <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Please don't take this as a personal comparison, but your comments remind me of a gold-chained 'stink-potter' at a boat show in Houston I recently overheard. He was insulting the fleet of sailboats in general as: too slow, too complicated, too cramped, they don't make enough noise and they aren't a 'real man's boat.'

Before I bought my 250WB I was seriously looking at an BEAUTIFUL Irwin 28. It was immaculate; all teak interior, new diesel, new sails, new bottom job, auto-pilot, GPS, dock-side air, fresh water maker, new bimini and cost less than I paid for my 250. That boat was a real prize, but made no sense for me at this time in my life. It would have been overkill on Canyon Lake, would have required WAY more routine cosmetic maintanence than I am willing to spend right now and would have driven me nuts worrying about what my kids and their friends would be spilling and scratching.

After looking at a few C25s and 27s, my wife showed NO interest. Too cramped, too dark, too musty (said she). After seeing a new 250 at a dealer, she was very interested. She liked the openess, "whiteness" of the interior. She liked that with everything leading to the cockpit, there was no need to go forward. Anything that improves her attitude towards sailing is a big plus in my book.

Sure, if I had my way I would be sailing a 35-40 ft boat everyday in the Bahamas. Reality dictates otherwise. Most of the attributes you list as detractors are actually what sold me on the 250. It's just the boat I need for my family. The ease of trailering allows us to explore different lakes and the gulf coast. The fact that it's 'all plastic' means I spend time with my family sailing, not working on the boat. The ease of maintenance and cleaning mean I am much more worry-free and relaxed when my kids and their friends are dripping popsicles and chocolate chip cookies everywhere. Besides, the smell of Formula 409 gives me less of a headache than the smell of varnish <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

I'm not making this up, but last week as I was casting off for a sail with my parents, an older couple from the next dock (Steve and Derek, you may know them, they are slipped just across from Steve) hollered over asking how I spent so much time sailing and not cleaning. I promise, my exact reply was "It's all plastic." The wife bemoaned the hours they spent working rather than relaxing.

Yes, everyone has needs/wants/priorities. I'm grateful Catalina realizes that the needs/wants/priorities are not the same for everyone. I and about 650 other people are glad they build "this thing." Similarly and equally, I would not (and did not) buy a 25. It's a fine boat, just not the boat for me.

Well, guess I'll go home to the 250 forum now. I'll check back in when my ears start buring again. . . but I'm warning you. . . next time I won't be alone, I'll bring some of my big friends who own 250s with me! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

BTW, Why IS this topic posted in the 25 section and not the General or 250 section?

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

Edited by - bren737 on 10/18/2002 00:14:47

Edited by - bren737 on 10/18/2002 00:30:22

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 01:24:08

INCOMMMIIIING!

Conversation overheard in the lounge of the Enterprise:

"I didn't mean to say that the C250 should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage" -- Korax of the Klingon Empire

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
1980 C25 #2151
SR/FK

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 06:36:41

Dennis

You mentioned that you didn't think this was a thread for a newbie. I assume you're saying someone new to sailing and to Catalina.

I think this just the kind of thread a newbie ought to interested in. Not so much because of what they can contribute but because of what they can learn. In buying a boat there are a number of factors to consider and as I have read the comments posted these factors have been brought out.

For me three are basic:

1. Do you plan to trailer the boat? If "yes" shallow draft and light weight are important to you.

2. What is the environment in which you plan to use the boat? You will notice lots of comments about "swing, fin or wing" on the forum. Each has important impact on the which of the three forms of bottom would be best for you. I had a friend who had a swinger that he moved in a tidel river. The combination of water forces during a storm caused the swinging keel to creak the center board trunk and the boat sank. We learned that the environment in which the boat will be sailed is very important. His replacement boat has a fin keel.

3. How much time do you have to do the work required on the boat? How much talent do you have to do the work required?

Oh, ya, a forth: How much can you afford?

I encourage you to pay attention to these HOT forums, and to read them and learn from them. As people are saying, ". . . different strokes for different folks . . .."

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 08:30:31

We USED to be one, big, happy family.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> And I hope the C250 owners will stil be welcome in the C25 forum. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Now my opinions as a C250 wing keel owner.

1. Headroom - you were probably looking at a water ballast model. The wing keel has a little over 5' of standing head room.

2. Finish - I like plastic! Its not that I don't like the look of teak, but I want to spend my weekends sailing not finishing my teak. One of the criteria for my next boat will be a minimum of teak - preferably none on the exterior. Your opinion may differ.

3. The layout provides a lot of usable living in a small space. It works for us (a couple w/ no kids or pets) as both a sailboat and a weekend home ("camper" if you like). Again, your opinion may differ (but there's no need to be rude about it!).

4. Deck - agreed, you do need to step up to get forward. It's a trade-off for interior space. And its difficult to get on board from a finger pier if you're pulled in forward. That said, all lines lead aft so the only thing we go forward for while underway is to put in the wisker pole or drop the anchor.

5. Lifelines - I don't have a problem with mine, but I haven't seen another C250 rigged so there may be a design differnce.

6. I would not consider my wing keel trailerable. If I needed a trailerable boat I'm not sure if the C250WB would be our choice because of the headroom (my husband is over 6'), but that was not my criteria.

When we bought our C250 we were moving up from a Prindle 16 & Force 5 dingy and day sailing to weekending at a marina. We wanted a boat with very low maintenance that we could leave in the water and live on for the weekends. Its met our needs then and still does. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> In the end that is the most important thing - does your boat meet your needs and preferences.

As always your opinion may differ. Differing opinions make life interesting - I hope we can all just keep civil about it.
<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 08:59:05

OKAY EVERYONE INTO A Neutral Corner.....

For the most part I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion. If Loren thinks the boat sucks...fine...Others Don't.... I don't want to speak for Douglas, but I would be willing to bet he would take either a 25 or a 250 right now and not gripe about either...

The only comment I disagree with is

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...endowed with endless streams of time or money.
If I wanted the boat that you describe, I certanly wouldn't buy a Catalina 25.....I would buy a C310, or the new C350, or more reasonbly evn a modest mid 80's Catalina 30 would fit the bill.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If I had "ENDLESS STREAMS OF MONEY" a catalina wouldn't even make my top ten list and I bet it wouldn't make most of yours....Island Packet, Morgan, C&C (especially the new 99 which is one fine piece of glass), Tartan, FARR (for the racers) even an old Pearson, Beneteau, Moody, Boston Boat Works....the list goes on....then gets to catalina...

Edited by - on

pwhallon
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 09:12:38

WOW!!

I prefer the older style too.....BUT!!!!!

I would gladly sail either right now. Desperation is the mother of compromise.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Stuck with a stinkboat.

Paul

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 09:22:32

I only left for a minute to go get a beer from the fridge - what round of the boxing match are we in ?

And as long as we're naming favourites, make mine a Gozzard 44.

http://www.gozzard.com/main/g44/g44_frameset.htm

Someday my ship will come in.. I'll probably be out back, taking out the garbage..

Edited by - on

jellyfish
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171 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 11:43:54

whoa, whoa, whoa, Aprils a blonde and I love her almost as much as my 87 tall rig, fin keel!!! they are both keepers. if we were all the same this ole world would be one boring place. OK back to the fight!<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Kirk McKay
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 12:18:06

First let me say, I have been sailing since...now let me think...June of this year! I bought a 25 mainly because of this board. I haven't been on that many boats, but part of what draws them to me is character. I also went on the "boat in question" at the show in Annapolis...character was what I thought it was lacking. That doesn't mean that nobody should buy it, or it isn't a great boat for somebody else! It's just not what I think of when I think of my new found hobby. I guess I'm missing something by not spending all my time working on my boat. I spend my time on it SAILING. I guess I don't expect it to look brand new...to each their own.
On a side note, I know have the boat show to thank for motivating us to organize a BVI Charter in January. Wahoo!

Kirk

Edited by - kirk mckay on 10/18/2002 12:21:30

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 12:30:39

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Anything that improves her attitude towards sailing is a big plus in my book.
Well said Bren

asking how I spent so much time sailing and not cleaning. I promise, my exact reply was "It's all plastic." The wife bemoaned the hours they spent working rather than relaxing
 I've discovered that using the right products allow you to spend more time sailing

Yes, everyone has needs/wants/priorities. I'm grateful Catalina realizes that the needs/wants/priorities are not the same for everyone.
The different needs that the two boats satisfy may actaully go beyond what was originally intended. After being in the work mode Sunday evening through Friday evening - performing occasional light maintenance is actually how I unwind.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 13:45:49

Loren,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>There are a couple really nice "pocket cruisers" on the market, but I am sure they must cost more than this (C-250). <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I get really weary of people telling me how Island Packets, Cape Dorys, Morgans, C&Cs, Tartans, FARRs, Pearsons, Beneteaus, Moodys, etc., are much better boats than my C-25. Whether one boat is better than another boat depends on how you plan to use the boat. Island Packets are excruciatingly slow in any amount of wind, and they hate to tack. While it is true that they are nearly indestructible, they have the sailing qualities of a floating log, and besides, I don’t need an indestructible boat. Some of the other above-listed boats are not much better. All the above-listed boats cost much more than Catalinas, and Catalinas will sail circles around many of their models of similar size. If the time comes that I feel a need for a tougher boat, I’ll open my wallet and probably spring for some other brand than a Catalina. If I decide that I need a bigger or faster boat, Catalina will still be on my list of choices. I’ll still believe that dollar-for-dollar and pound-for-pound, my Catalina was the best value in the industry.

I have raced my C-25 against some C-250s, and the C-250 is a very good, competitive boat that can beat a C-25 on any given day. Like Derek, my C-25 has occasionally been whupped by C-250’s.

Regarding your other observations about headroom, finish, cabin layout, deck, lifelines and trailerability, I agree with Cathy’s comments.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 14:03:18

"I probably can spend 3 days more a year sailing than you, because your busy cleaning and prepping the teak." - Gary Clarke

"The fact that it's 'all plastic' means I spend time with my family sailing, not working on the boat." - Bren Peterson

"...but I want to spend my weekends sailing not finishing my teak. One of the criteria for my next boat will be a minimum of teak - preferably none on the exterior." - Cathy

I haven't owned my C25 for very long, but I think there is a misconception concerning the amount of maintenance that teak requires. For those newbies and prospective C25 owners out there, don't be intimidated by the interior or exterior teak, because the amount of effort required to keep it up is dependent on the desired look(natural, oiled, varnish, Cetol,...etc) you want to achieve. Some do nothing on their exterior teak and let it gray naturally, others want 10 coats of varnish. Either way, the choice in the amount of effort required is yours.

<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> Now for the obligatory gentle rib poking!

I think what we need here is perspective when it comes to the maintenance issue. Firstly, a quick look on Yachtworld yielded an average price of $28,800 <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>for a 2002/3 C250. That is over $25,000 more than I paid for my C25. With the money I saved, I could hire someone to refinish my teak every year for the next 25 years. Heck, for that kind of cash I could have a housekeeping service maintain the interior, have the exterior washed and waxed before I set foot on it every sailing day, pay someone to do the bottom maintence, buy every sailing gadget known to man, replace sails when they get dirty, hire a bartender.....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
1980 C25 #2151
SR/FK

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 14:14:49

Just a word of note, I oiled the interior teak once back in 1997 (before I even owned the boat) and it hasn't been touched since and still looks great....

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 14:27:45

I, too, used oil on the interior teak. I did this a year ago and it still looks great!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
1980 C25 #2151
SR/FK

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Ray Seitz
Captain

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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 14:56:03

Sounds to me like you 25 owners think you own Hinckley's instead of just Catalina's<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628 Sea Major

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 15:41:39

My C25 is a "Hinckley". The guy I purchased it from was named, "Billy Bob Hinckley! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
1980 C25 #2151
SR/FK

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LOREN SOUERS
Navigator

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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 15:52:59

Needless to say, I did not expect such a response to this topic. I honestly would not know if the 2003 model C250 is representative of earlier models of the boat or not. Obviously, I would assume the hull is the same shape and the sail design remains.
Obviously, some of my comments seem offensive to C250 owners. This must be because the boat I saw at the boat show IS, in fact, representative of earlier models. Please! I used no foul words. I discussed my observation of the boat displayed. I did say, "What a disappointment!" And it was to me. But I certainly acknowledge that the boat is more trailerable than the C25. I also acknowledge that the teak on the OUTSIDE of the C25 requires regular attention. The teak on the INSIDE of the boat is really what I was talking about when referring to Finish.
In any event, I meant to offend no one and, although this website is open to the public, meant no offense to C250 owners. As I said above, I did not know the new boat to be representative of previous models. (I have yet to go to the C250 specific forum) I certainly will not go now, lest my computer receive some messages with arrows somehow imbedded.
Remember, this is the land of the free (for U.S. readers) and we are still allowed to express our opinions. I expressed mine. I read yours, and we simply have different opinions. That's what makes horse races.
Thanks to everyone who responded. (Wow!!)

Loren Souers
Nimue, The Lady of the Lake
(and full of lovely teak, and not very expensive, etc. etc.)

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cathluk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/18/2002 : 16:20:36

"Nimue, The Lady of the Lake"

What a great boat name!

C250s are going for $28,000 new?!!! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> I hope that includes the trailer! I bought my '97 used in '99 for MUCH less.

Now - on to more exciting topics like actually sailing our C25s & C250s. I hope to have another month on the water before it gets too cold.

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

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