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hinmo
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USA
248 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/13/2009 : 02:28:10

Hi Folks - on about my 4th sail since the maiden disaster (lost the fore stay....see post on forum) and since I replaced the foresail and FF4 reefing furler.

So I probably should have bought a 135 Genoa, but instead got the 150. I have sailed with experienced buddies the past week with the 150, but must admit, I think its right at the reef point (Buzzards Bay Ma. prevailing 14-18 knot winds). Yesterday with the bride who is a pure novice I went with the main alone in 15-17 kt winds. Made headway fine, but overall was really not acceptable. I have not yet had any experience reefing the 150.

Questions is, how will the boat handle and how much can you reef a 150 (on a cdi ff4 reefing furler)? Can I reef it say 50%, or is it better at 25%? I was hesitant to try yesterday with the admiral onboard.

Also, has anyone had a sail cut? I am thinking offseason having this cut to a 135.

Thanks all

"Kukla" '83 FK,SR

Edited by - on

Merrick
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192 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 06:21:38

From past threads it sounds like our boats do better on genoa alone than main alone.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 07:01:19

Very true. Better drive, and less heel. I can't speak to a 150 on a CDI furler, except that I think you got the wrong sail for Buzzard's Bay.

Edited by - on

hinmo
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248 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 07:12:06

Understand Dave, but am trying to adapt for now. Anyone?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 07:16:00

Always remember one thing - when you ask a question like this, you'll usually get one answer from the racers and a different answer from the cruisers. The right answer for you depends on how you intend to use the boat. If you have a furler, you're probably more cruise-oriented than race-oriented.

IMHO, a headsail on a furler can usually be rolled up about 25% and still have fairly good shape. The more you furl it, the worse the shape, up to a point. The shape becomes especially bad when the sail is rolled up about halfway, because it is at the deepest part of the sail, and that deep pocket ruins the shape of the sail. If you roll it up still more, as you might in a high-wind storm situation, the shape actually gets better, because all that bagginess has been rolled up, and the small patch of sail that remains is very flat, and has a good shape for the high wind conditions.

If you roll up about 1/4th of a 150, it reduces the size enough so that you should be able to sail reasonably efficiently (for cruising purposes) in 14-18 kts of wind, especially if you tuck a reef in the mainsail.

I wouldn't have the sail cut down, because it'll cost as much to do that as it would cost to buy a used 90 or 110% jib, and, if it isn't done correctly, it could ruin the sail. I'd rather have the 150 to use when the wind goes light in the dog days of summer, and a 110 to use in the spring and fall.

If you have a roller furling 150 and a roller furling 110, you'll have sails that will work fairly efficiently throughout the whole range between light air and high winds.

Since you mentioned bikes, I just gave my Suzuki to my son, and bought a black Harley Sportster 883, and am having a great time with it this summer. Maryland has a lot of beautiful back roads, and is a good place to ride. I'm shopping around for a black tshirt with a skull and a four-letter word printed on it, to wear on the bike. Among bikers, I look a little out-of-place wearing my yachting shirts!

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/13/2009 07:26:23

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 07:37:29

If the conditions you describe are the prevailing conditions then why have a genny that is over-sized for you? A furled foresail is always giving up efficiency and performance because it wont have as good a shape. Why live with the wrong sail for 10 years or so? Find a good sail person and have it cut down to a more suitable size. My two cents.

You've only used it a couple of times. Maybe the place you got it will do a good trade-in on a smaller sail.

Also, generally it is best to have both sails up and reefed than to have just one sail. On masthead rigs the foresail provides the drive while the main provides the balance and control. It is certainly possible to sail with just one, and I sometimes do it, but two is better.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/13/2009 07:41:44

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 07:48:43

hinmo,

I have never sailed with a furler, si I can't say much about that. I can't say enough about what a difference the rig tuning made on Iris though. I went from fighting the boat to working with her.

When you put your new furler on and your new sails, did you take th etime to go through and tune everything one turnbuckle at a time?

I find now that when I have the sails matched to the conditions I see very little difference in handling between a 30 knot blow and a 5 knot breeze. The rudder is now much more responsive, but almost neutral on centre, the boat points better and heels less.

My sail of choice is our 155% I almost always put it on, second choice has come to be the storm jib(!) since it lets me get out in conditions where other boats are afraid to leave the docks. Third choice is our 110% since its for a good breeze but sitting flat (boring). Of course for racing or when SWMBO is aboard sitting flat is more important than anything else, so my sail plan changes accordingly.

I have flown my 155% in 25 knots of wind, but I wouldn't recommend doing that. It makes for a wild ride, but its hard on the boat and the skipper.

Edited by - on

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 10:56:47

Hinmo,
I have a 135 on my roller and I like it. The beauty of roller furling is that you can change it quickly and easily. The best advice I can give you is try it. Go out on days with different conditions and play around with various amounts of headsail. Try and keep the main the same as much as conditions will allow so you can get a feel for the difference when you make changes. Also these boats (mines a fin keel) sail pretty well on just a headsail. I do that from time to time when there are children on the boat and I know they won't stay out long. I am always suprised at how well it does sail on the genny. At the end of the day, your definition of fun will determine what is the right decsion for you. If you just like to sail and move along under the wind, then you will probably be happy with one genoa and furling it in and out to suit the day. If you want to always get maximum performance and have perfect sail shape, then that will steer your decisions in another direction. Just go experiment and have fun! Let us know what you think - you may be suprised!

Edited by - on

hinmo
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248 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 12:59:01

Steve - thanks. Yup, I'm the only one with my Harley cutoff shirt on, sitting at the mooring sipping JD instead of wine....oh well. Good luck with the bike.

All others - great responses. I will try furled at 25% and different ratios. I will inquire with the local sail fitter off season about cutting the 150 down. Its got to be cheaper than a new 135 and I really don't need a full complement of sails. I'm just a lazy, comfortable cruiser.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 14:04:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I'd rather have the 150 to use when the wind goes light in the dog days of summer, and a 110 to use in the spring and fall.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Spoken like a true Chesapeake sailor!

Buzzard's Bay is a whole different animal in the summer!

BTW, 130 and 150 are generally the designations for sails cut with higher clews--particularly for furlers and cruising. 135s and 155s are generally the same foot lengths but with lower clews giving a longer LP measurement--better for racing but not ideal on a furler or for visibility on a cruiser.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...Also, generally it is best to have both sails up and reefed than to have just one sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nah!

Genny alone on a blustery day is wonderful, especially when you can pull one string and be sailing, and then pull the other and be all wrapped up!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/13/2009 14:26:31

hinmo
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248 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 15:42:37

so Dave - with the 150 up alone (no main) how will she handle 15-18 Buzzards Bay conditions?

(yeh, I know...go try it...I will...I am just tentative with everything after almost dying on my maiden voyage!).

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 16:12:28

I only did it with a 130, but I predict you'll feel a dead-neutral helm (instead of the normal weather helm), less heel, and much more speed than you had under main alone. The best part is, with roller furling, it's so easy to do! Keep your sheet cars back to flatten the lower section of the sail in that breeze, just a bit aft of where the sheets run perpendicular to the forestay.

Edited by - on

cks
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126 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 18:20:30

a couple of suggestions:
1. reef the main- i think that you'll find that you won't have to reef the jib as soon or often and 2. tighten your rigging -stays and shrouds

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 18:26:58

I agree that sailing with a genny alone is easier and fun. It is also a better choice than main alone because the genny will drive you through the chop on a blustery day. It's also a good way to build confidence for all onboard. But eventually you will want to sail with both sails for optimal control and performance - there is a reason these boats have two sails.

Definitely learn how to reef the main. A reefed main and a partially furled genny is the optimum combo IMHO.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/13/2009 18:46:07

GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 19:02:25

I've sailed my boat just about every way possible. The boat is almost as fast with the 150 alone as it is with both. The boat handles much better on the genoa alone than it does with the main alone! I must say that the boat is definitely more balanced with both sails up.

If I'm feeling lazy on a windy/gusty day I'll fly the 150 by itself, if I want to go fast I'll fly both. One of the best times I've had was when it was blowing 14 - 16 and I flew the 150 and the main with a single reef. The boat was pretty well balanced and relatively easy to handle.

Edited by - GaryB on 07/13/2009 19:09:40

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 06:35:30

I have sailed on mainsail alone and jib alone, and, in the right conditions have found either to be a "good ride." If you sail on jib alone, it should be a big, overlapping jib, because a sailboat will be decently balanced with a big genoa. With a smaller jib, the boat will be very hard to sail to weather and to tack. Whether sailing on jib alone works depends on using the right sail in the right conditions.

Also, I generally avoid sailing on one sail when the sailing conditions are especially challenging; i.e., in especially light air or strong winds. At those times, you need the boat to perform its best, and it does that when the sailplan is balanced. Otherwise, sailing on one sail is a good way to reduce the effort that you need to expend on a hot, humid late-summer day.

The wind for Buzzard's Bay is predicted between 5-15 kts through this weekend (Wednesday through Sunday). That's ideal 150% genoa wind. If you cut down your 150, you won't have a sail that will maximize your enjoyment of the boat on the numerous light air days that apparently happen there. If you select sails that will make the boat perform well over a broad range of windspeeds, you'll be able to enjoy satisfying sailing more frequently.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/15/2009 07:28:17

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 12:07:41

Probably some of our best sails have been on our 110 jib (hank on) alone. As was said, there's less heel, and there's enough driving force to keep you up in the "near hull speed" area if the wind has piped up a bit. For us, this means anything over about 10-12 knots with our tall rig. Less heel & almost hull speed keeps everyone on board happy. Admittedly it's not so easy to go to weather, but we can always swap out our 110 for the 70 and raise a reefed (or double reefed) main so we can point better.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 19:23:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 BTW, 130 and 150 are generally the designations for sails cut with higher clews--particularly for furlers and cruising. 135s and 155s are generally the same foot lengths but with lower clews giving a longer LP measurement--better for racing but not ideal on a furler or for visibility on a cruiser.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

Are you sure? I have a 135 furling genoa and it has a high cut clew. Both Catalina Direct and North Sails list furling genoas in both a 135 and 150 size and I'm sure they have high cut, furling clews. It appears 135 is a rather standard sail size from most lofts.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 19:38:13

I can attest to the C25 performing beautifully under 135 alone. I can also attest to the horrid performance of the genoa when it is partially furled.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 20:40:07

Don, I made a generalization that, by my observation, has been the difference between 155s and 150s in particular. My 130 was designed specifically for a furler--I have known people with 135s that were hank-ons with lower clews. Out of curiosity, I did some math on the LP versus the foot length for different clew heights (quite a while ago), and it came out that way. I'm sure there are exceptions--maybe my observation is the exception. In the final analysis, the sail can be 142.35 or any size anybody wants. But if the clew of a 135 is raised from a deck-sweeper (which doesn't work well on a furler) to typical furling height, the LP is shorter, turning that sail into roughly a 130.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 10:25:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 But if the clew of a 135 is raised from a deck-sweeper (which doesn't work well on a furler) to typical furling height, the LP is shorter, turning that sail into roughly a 130.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave, I beg to differ. The size of a jib is based on the LP. Period. It has nothing to do with the height of the clew, which can be made in a deck sweeper or a high clew. It's the distance from the luff to the clew, that's all.

Here's the best way I've found to explain it: put a jib on UPSIDE DOWN. It's the SAME LP but with, now, a MUCH higher clew!!!

Then think of the "in betweens" of where the clew could be as long as it's the same LP dimension from the luff.

In addition, the luff length can be long or short, neither of which will change the LP.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 07/17/2009 09:11:00

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 09:57:25

How do you tell what size your jibs are? I know the 100% comes back to but not past the mast. My bigger sail looks like around a 130 or maybe a 120? Is there a way to measure it? I REALLY wish I had a 150 or 155. It's on my list....in the summer we get a lot of light air in Texas. My favorite wind to sail is 15 to 20 knts. If I'm heeling too much, I tighten the back stay and the cunningham and loosen up the traveler to leeward. Seems to work pretty well, especially adjusting the traveler. I haven't sailed genny alone but I have with the main alone and it was horribly slow. I would have to think jib alone would be better.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 11:29:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 How do you tell what size your jibs are? I know the 100% comes back to but not past the mast. My bigger sail looks like around a 130 or maybe a 120? Is there a way to measure it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sure, get out a tape measure, then read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa_(sail): "Genoas are categorized by the percentage of overlap. This is calculated by looking at the distance along a perpendicular line from the luff of the genoa to the clew, called the LP (for "luff perpendicular"). A 150% genoa would have an LP 50% larger than the foretriangle length. Sail racing classes often specify a limit to genoa size." 

That "foretriangle length" is the length of the forestay, not the length of the luff of the sail.

There are probably a bunch of sailmaker's websites with better explanations and drawings, but you can get the idea from the link, and the C25 brochure which gives you the boat's rig dimensions.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 07/20/2009 11:33:37

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 15:49:05

The foretriangle length referred to above in the definition is not the forestay length, which is about 29 ft on a std rig C-25. The denominator in the calculation to determine a jib's LP size is the "J" dimension, or the length of the line from the base of the mast to the forestay. On a C-25 it is about 10.5 ft. Measure your jib's LP and divide by 10.5. That will be the size indicator for your jib.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 19:05:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 The denominator in the calculation to determine a jib's LP size is the "J" dimension, or the length of the line from the base of the mast to the forestay.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, the J dimension is measured from the stem fitting to the front of the mast at deck level. On a C25, this measurement would terminate about a foot below the physical base of the mast.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 20:15:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 But if the clew of a 135 is raised from a deck-sweeper (which doesn't work well on a furler) to typical furling height, the LP is shorter, turning that sail into roughly a 130.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Dave, I beg to differ. The size of a jib is based on the LP. Period...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Of course. But from all the people, boats, and sails I've known (including my own), I have concluded that when a sailmaker cuts a sail for cruising and roller-furling, it commonly turns out to be a 130 or 150, while essentially the same hank-on sail for racers, with the same overlap, is a 135 or 155. The reason? The hank-on version has a lower clew and therefore longer LP.

I just thought I'd offer that observation, in case anyone wondered why one person was talking about a 130 and another about a 135 (or 150 and 155).

Maybe I'm wrong.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/21/2009 20:21:38

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