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Help! Jib Sheets and Jib Sheet knots

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MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/16/2009 : 14:58:06

Gang... my recent C-25 purchase has been wonderful. We've only sailed under the mainsail so far, and it's time to use the jib. I broke out the Jib and it looks in great condition. However the sheets (two) are mismatched and different lengths. I've already determined the previous owner for the last 5 years never raised the mainsail, and the jib was stowed in fine shape.

Can someone tell me what the proper sheet length is for a standard jib? I hope I've got enough line (one white/red one green/red) for each. I was thinking I'd just run a standard bowline knot to the clew for each sheet. Anyone run a single sheet? That would be interesting too.

Thanks in advance!
Murphy

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 15:49:37

Murphy, you're going to stir up a can of worms on this one, there was a big long thread about the "proper" knot for attaching your sheets to your jib. There is the two sheets with bowline camp, and the single sheet with a lark's head or cow's hitch (same knot) in the middle camp. Then there's the attached with a snap shackle/carabiner camp, and a couple other variants. Search the forum for cow's hitch or lark's head, you're sure to find the thread.

FWIW, I'm in the lark's head in the middle of my sheets camp, although I have a set made up with a shackle.

As far as the proper length, I'm sure some of the C-25 guys will chime in. Basically you need twice as much line as it takes to fly your jib back to your winches plus another couple feet for turns on the winches, plus another few feet to reach your tiller or wheel if you plan to single hand. It's better to guesstimate long and cut them later than short and have to start over.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 16:20:30

I use a continuous sheet with a cow hitch on a snap shackle.
The sheets don't catch and I can remove the sheets when I'm away from the boat.
I remove the sheets and tie a line through the clew and around the furled sail.
This saves the sheets from sitting in the sun and secures the sail in case there is a storm while I'm away.
On advise from the forum I have 7/8" line but it is over kill and too heavy for light air.
A continous sheet will be between 65' and 70'.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 16:25:31

A single sheet or two sheets are really a matter of preference. Attaching them is also a preference. I inherited a single sheet when I bought IMPULSE and had a cow hitch that worked very well. This year I cut the sheet in half so as to be able to reverse them every year for better wear attached with bowline knots. I wouldn't use any kind of a shackle, This adds weight to the sail and also becomes a piece of flying shrapnel to anyone on the for-deck. OUCH!

Some do, but just my opinion.

Edited by - islander on 07/16/2009 16:28:34

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 21:19:31

I believe that the correct lengths are (for each sheet):
The length of the boat for a 100%
1 & 1/2 times boat length for a 155% and
Twice the boat length for a spinnaker.
How to tie each sheet or the continuous length sheet on is a personal preference.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 05:47:35

It seems like I bought 55 ft and it was a bit much. I think I'd take the longer sheet, run it back from the raised jib and see what you have.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 07:06:55

We got a new sheet this season (we're in the cow hitch camp)and we went long...the old sheet was just a little too short and the tail would always flop over the side and be a hassle to retrieve, especially w/ a partial furl and 'dynamic' conditions...We don't seem to mind a little extra line in the cockpit.

Edited by - jerlim on 07/17/2009 07:07:16

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 07:17:22

While we're on the subject my mainsheet is long. Even wing on wing I don't come close to the end of it. Anyone got a length on it?
BTW I made a bag out of blue ripstop with a velcro flap that I put over the mainsheet while it is stored on the rail.
Keeps the sun off and may add life to it.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 07:19:36

<< attached with a snap shackle/carabiner camp >>

I've been looking at using a single set of sheets and the sister clips. The Snap shackle/ carabiners are heavy and if they get away from you they can flail something ( like your head )

I've been looking at the Ronstan # RF89 Sister Clips.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 07:46:16

Well.. I went to the ronstan website to research the sister clips ( I have an older catalogue ) and I got a warning that the site has trojans.

Hmmmm... I think I'll wait on that.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 07:52:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 I've been looking at the Ronstan # RF89 Sister Clips.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Also known as Brummel (sp?) hooks. Their breaking load is 550#. You shouldn't work hardware at over half (or maybe a third) of it's breaking load, and that's not anywhere close to enough. If you jibe your genny, it'll instantly be a flag. The proper hardware for that job will have a breaking load of several thousand pounds, and therefore be heavy enough to damage your standing rigging (or your head). Use those hooks for the spin on your 420.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/17/2009 08:27:15

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 08:31:12

Thanks for pointing that out Dave, I figured somebody might chime in and give me some indication of the safe load limits to use for this application. I've seen these sister clips used on smaller boats for the spankers, which are normally only used for light winds. I'm going to use the sister clips on my cruising chute and the 135 jib. These are the two sails I normally use and I'm on an inland lake. This is also for the older sails, which are pretty bagged out. Using these sails under calmer conditions.

I'm looking forward to a new 135..

I should post with a light load disclaimer ( don't try this offshore folks! )

But.. my take home is:

Don't Work Hardware over half it's Breaking Load

Thank You

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 09:22:11

Murphy if you have only sailed with the main so far and it's wonderful, you will be in for a pleasant surprise.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 09:23:50

I run a 135 jib. It has a single continuous sheet that is twice the length of the boat so each sheet is the length of the boat. Seems plenty for everything from fully poled out to wrapped around the shroud when reefed. These are the sheets that came from the PO. I don't remove my sheets. About the only thing "required" for sheets is that they are long enough and strong enough. Everything else I think is personal preference IMHO.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 09:30:15

Ray, the more bagged out a sail is, the more load it puts on the running rigging--thus the more heel. The clew of a big genny undergoes shock-loads when tacking or especially jibing, and a shock-load can be multiples of the static load after the shock. Oceans don't necessarily stress a rig more than lakes do, and winds sometimes come up... (See the thread [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20158"]Storm Story[/url].)

Next time you tack and trim your genny in 10 knots, try doing it with no winch or cleat. First you'll feel the shock load as the sail sets on the other side--that's the shock-load. Then the force it takes to trim the sail is the static load. (Actually, I'd rather you just imagine it--it could hurt.) What I'm getting to is you're looking at some small-boat hardware there, and yours is not what most of us would call a small boat.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 11:21:04

Yepper.. I got ya on that .. good point on the shock loads. Sometimes I post with out the time to fully splain myself. Usually Friday afternoons at work I have to time to post well..

ANyhoo...

I was trying to say that since it is bagged out and old, I don't use it in good wind just more on broad reaches and downwind and on less wind.

The Inland lake I'm on is pretty small, ( Lake Sidney Lanier ) and we are in a mountainous area, so our winds don't get to build very much.

http://www.intellicast.com/National/Wind/WINDcast.aspx

As you can see from our wind forecast our summer winds are often no more than 5-10. We even have the storms from the NE often getting the "wind" knocked out of them as they make it over the Appalachians up around Knoxville. At Lanier we often try to go out in a storm.

Now I'm sure the storms that build around Tahoe could have some real umph to them. And I can't imagine Mystic... I've always wanted to rent a j24 down east...

On this lake I change out sails frequently..

Sounds like the Carabiners might be lighter with higher loads.

Now I'm gonna have a look at their loads on the climbing gear.

Yepper on the small boat hardware. This 25ft is new to me (4 years) and I'm new to the loads for this boat.

This lake is Considerably different from others I've sailed on as the land around it is steep and you can get to a wind shadow fast. Also there is not a lot of open water.

Of course you can always get into the thick of it quick, we lost many many old trees in the marina from a storm just 2 months ago. Talk about shock loads.

I wonder who was out that day....thinking Hmmmm.. I wonder if those brummel hooks will hold on that old sail....

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 11:22:22

Storms from the NW... I'm posting to quick.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 11:42:02

I've also tried to go with Big sheet lines with stretch to help with the shock loads. And easier on the hands. but I can't remember the line sizes I've been using. I guess this adds a lot of weight, but the big fuzzy line for sheets work great on the winches.

Thank you

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 12:34:27

Murphy:

I just went through this and here's what I did. I got a single 50' length of 7/16 single braid line. Find the midpoint and mark it. When you are ready to use the jib, double the line over and pas the midpoint through the clew in the jib. Then pass each bitter end through the loop. I did this a couple of days ago and it worked like a charm--no more hanging knots on the stays. The only thing I might have done different would have been to get 5/16 instead of 7/16, but I have kind of big hands. When I stowed the jib I just left the jib sheet attached and coiled it. 50' also seemed to be about the right length.

Edited by - on

mrapkins
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 04:31:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 While we're on the subject my mainsheet is long. Even wing on wing I don't come close to the end of it. Anyone got a length on it?
BTW I made a bag out of blue ripstop with a velcro flap that I put over the mainsheet while it is stored on the rail.
Keeps the sun off and may add life to it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I just replaced my mainsheet (West Marine is closing so 50% off all cut line and chain!) because it was a bit too short - 40ft. The Catalina manual says 75ft!!!!!!!!!!! I was told by my marina guru who used to sell Catalinas that their mainsheets were always too long. I have not sailed with the new mainsheet but decided to go with 60 ft. My reasoning was that although my existing sheet was short, it wasn't half of what it should be (well nearly) and being a little too long is better than too short - again!

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 06:43:47

I have found that virtually ALL the lines, sheets, etc. on my boat are too long. I have read or been told that the reason for this may be that if something breaks you have something to work with. I have to say that I'm not sure that is worth the tradeoff of having a lot of cluttered lines in the cockpit.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 08:03:53

As a general rule, lines should be exactly the right length - neither too long nor too short. If they're too short, they won't serve their purpose, and if too long, they will get in the way and get snarled. I crew on a boat with halyards that are too long, and every time we fly the chute, the halyards get tangled, and have to be unsnarled before we can get the spinnaker flying. Also, lines that are too long have a tendency to trail overboard in the water when the boat heels.

Also as a general rule, lines should be neither too big nor too small for their purpose. If they're too big, they won't run freely through the blocks and other hardware, they'll be too heavy, and sometimes the hardware won't work at all. If they're too small, they won't withstand the stresses. The last thing you need, when the going gets rough, is to have lines that won't run freely through the hardware when you're trying to furl the sails and rig the boat for heavy weather.

If lines of proper size hurt your hands, the better remedy is to get a pair of sailing gloves.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 08:24:52

One variable determining the length of the mainsheet is how it's rigged. My SR mainsheet was rigged 4:1, which I seemed a bit excessive. Additionally, it was excessively long even for that rigging. I could (and maybe should) have gone to 3:1 and cut off about a third of the length, for easier control and less clutter.

Edited by - on

gruntus
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 11:04:16

Not sure if this was talked about in sheets thread or not but I found this about a month ago. It's pretty neat.

http://sailing.about.com/od/equipmentgear/ss/softshacklehowto.htm

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2009 : 08:32:38

The soft shackle idea looks very interesting.
I have a separate sheet attached to my working jib, and it is a heavier line than my genoa sheet(provided by the PO). I also have a second set of fairlead cars/blocks on my genoa tracks, so, if I need to change jibs, I can run the sheets before actually changing sails.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2009 : 12:13:19

Murphy,
Here's a spec sheet and running rigging checklist that I found helpful when we bought our boat. Only, I chose 3/8" line for the genoa sheets.
http://home.comcast.net/~c30sailor/c25/c25specs.htm

Edited by - on

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