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Heaving -to

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John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/02/2009 : 21:40:14

Does heaving -to loose its effectiveness in stronger winds?

I hove -to today on port tack in 15-18 mph winds and the bow kept getting blown off, so she would end up back on port tack.

I had the job sheeted in pretty well but not as tight as it could have been. I wonder if that was the problem.

At what point is the wind to strong for this tactic?

johnnyp

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 05:57:10

John it sounds like you were not properly hove-to. In addition to back-winding the jib are you also sheeting the Main to leeward and tieing the tiller to windward?

Edited by - on

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 09:58:41

Renzo,
Yes I did, I tacked without touching the Jib, I let the main swing over and kept the tiller hard over pointed at the main.

I was on a close reach with a 110 Jib and unreefed main.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 10:17:17

I had the same experience with the same sails. Maybe the backwinded 110 jib doesn't balance the main well enough. This summer I'm going to try harder to get it to work, though.

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 11:37:07

I believe the tiller goes to leeward after you tack and leave the jib backwinded. I've not experienced it in high winds, but it is a "storm" tactic so should be a setup that makes it work for you.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 13:31:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Pittman
 Does heaving -to loose its effectiveness in stronger winds? ...
At what point is the wind to strong for this tactic?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
At a "Safety at Sea" seminar, I asked John Rousmanierre what he considered to be the best heavy weather technique to use in the worst of conditions, e.g., sea anchor, drogue, etc. Without hesitation he said heaving to. I didn't have time to discuss it with him at length, but got the impression that, as the windstrength increases, you should reduce sail area accordingly, until you have only a storm jib and storm trisail, or the equivalent.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 17:38:49

I also decided to learn this technique this summer. In light winds with a 135 Genoa it worked perfectly the four times I have done it. I was tickled pink. We were both so at ease with it that we jumped over for a swim. Its something to see your boat from the water just sitting there with full sails up and not moving!

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5377 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 19:09:03

John Rousmaniere was not BS-ing you one bit. Heaving-to is the most stable configuration for any time you want to stop in almost any conditions, provided you have enough sea room (with several miles to wihdward before you reach the next shoal or shore). Because your boat is slipping to leeward, the slick produced by the boat even lessens the severity of oncoming waves, so you should not become broached, even in bad conditions.

I used to heave-to in 15+ winds my 16 footer with a standard jib and main reefed. I backwinded the jib, aimed the boat up to pinch, and tied the tiller handle to the leeward rail.
It balanced well.

I tried the same move in Passage in 15+ winds, with a Genoa instead of a standard jib amd try as I may, I was unable to keep her hove-to or stable at all. I had too much headsail.

I furled the genny to make it more like the size of a jib or storm trysail, and it worked great! I experimented with the furler and was able to adjust the boat's attitude or balance to the wind.

Practice it any time you are in strong winds and want to take a lunch break. You will be glad when you have to do it in desperate conditions.

Edited by - on

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 19:50:30

So I had to much head sail up?

I did not have the 110 jib sheeted flat.
It was bellied out a fair bit.
Perhaps due to this it was catching enough wind to blow the bow over.

In lighter winds last week I hove to 5-10 mph and it worked perfectly.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 20:46:36

I've always wondered how much stress this puts on the keel in a heavy blow. It's definitely a very comfortable ride but I wonder how much those keel bolts can handle.

Edited by - on

Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 05:32:31

John, your sail plan may have been fine...just next time, try putting the tiller all the way to the leeward side rather than the windward side.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 06:05:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Merrick
 I believe the tiller goes to leeward after you tack and leave the jib backwinded.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My Bad

I meant leeward but wrote windward

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 06:19:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Pittman
 Renzo,
Yes I did, I tacked without touching the Jib, I let the main swing over and kept the tiller hard over pointed at the main.

I was on a close reach with a 110 Jib and unreefed main.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Then It should work. Next time try adjusting the position of the Main a little. If your bow is being blown off the wind (as you described), so that the boat is jybing around, back on to port tack, then the main may need to be trimmed in a bit to counter the force of the wind and waves on the jib. Also as you said the jib may need to be flattened more.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 07:15:48

I was reading Bill Seifert's book on offshore sailing, and he writes that heaving-to is a technique that is being lost among sailors. Many of the new, fast, light boats don't heave-to well, he writes, and people just don't even know how or why they should do it. He estimated that more than half of all sailors these days wouldn't know how to heave-to. That really amazes me. It's so easy and effective for everything from a survival tactic to a stop for a swim to coming alongside another boat. I use it, for example, whenever I catch a fish. As soon as the fish bites, I heave-to so I can deal with the fish. I always heave-to by tacking, but in one of my classes we also did it by gybing, and that worked fine too. I have found that in higher winds I need to mess with the sheeting on the main to balance the forces. A rogue wave can also throw me off. Furling the jib might have the same effect, but it's easier to just sheet in or out till it holds. I've also heard that it's possible to heave-to with just a main, though I'd have to think about that one. I used to practice steering my Hobie without the tiller, so I can see where it could be possible to create opposing forces with a single sail. Maybe someday I furl in my jib and try that just for giggles.
Anyway, John, to answer your questions, play with the mainsheet, sheeting in, driving the boat up till the bow stops falling off.

Edited by - windsong on 08/04/2009 10:34:58

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 08:36:22

Heaving-to with just the main is interesting. I wonder if one could use this technique while putting up a storm sail. Michael let me know if you have any luck with this procedure

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 09:00:10

I remember my first (and only) sailing instructor saying that if you want the boat to stop, just let go. Let go of the sheets and the tiller, the boat rounds up, you stop. Other than the luffing of the sail, how's this different than heaving to with main alone?

Edited by - on

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 09:14:47

I heave-to with a 135 roller furling every time I go out. I have found in stronger winds (15+) it really helps to furl in some of the jib. Too much headsail will cause you to "waddle" rather than side slip. Typically I will furl the jib in enough so it isn't pushing against the shouds/stays. There is no magic to it. Just play with it until you are comfortable. I keep the main sheeted in and centered. It works beautifully.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 10:21:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I remember my first (and only) sailing instructor saying that if you want the boat to stop, just let go. Let go of the sheets and the tiller, the boat rounds up, you stop. Other than the luffing of the sail, how's this different than heaving to with main alone?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

First, it is not good for the sails when they are allowed to flog, as when "in irons". Someone once said, everytime a sail flogs, it puts a dollar in the sailmakers pocket. Additionally, if you are in irons, you are most likely pointed directly into oncoming waves/seas. Heaving to is easier on the sails and puts you in a better position relative to the wave action.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 11:18:32

Page 32 of Pardey's book discusses heaving-to on mainsail alone. Google has the book free, online in Googlebooks. Looks easy enough. I wonder if it would work on our boats...

Go to: http://books.google.com/books?id=CZWRwa3VmAAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=storm+tactics+handbook#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Edited by - windsong on 08/04/2009 11:25:06

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 17:57:34

I tried this last week using my 135 jib and full main in a very light wind. The boat did not slip sideways. But it did just go round and round. Perhaps the winds were too light, 2-5, for the correct effect?

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2009 : 05:45:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I remember my first (and only) sailing instructor saying that if you want the boat to stop, just let go. Let go of the sheets and the tiller, the boat rounds up, you stop. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's what my dad used to do with our 18 ft lake catamaran pretty much, but I think he let the sheets go and gently steered into irons. But a smaller sail wouldn't have so much sail on sail contact I'm thinking.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2009 : 12:57:58

Heave to requires BALANCE, just like any other point of sail Having discussed this for many years, what i find repeated very often is the "I can't heave to with my 135 genoa!" Of course ya can't, because there's simply too much sail up there. As was pointed out earlier by Blue Nose, it is critical to have the right sail combo up, and with reefing it can be made to work.

My experience, personally and from reading, is that you need to do two things --

1. balance the rig with not too much head sail

2. make sure you are sailing close hauled, not even close reach, close hauled, so that when you tack to go to the heave to the clew of the jib is as far aft as possible; this is what provides the balance.

Many folks have written in saying I can't heave to, and we learn they're on a beam reach and wonder why it won't work. Of course ti won't because of the position the boat needs to be in when it "stops", i.e., at an angle to the wind, not wind abeam.

Keep practicing, it's a great and SAFE technique that is important to know.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 06:24:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 Heave to requires BALANCE, just like any other point of sail Having discussed this for many years, what i find repeated very often is the "I can't heave to with my 135 genoa!" Of course ya can't, because there's simply too much sail up there. As was pointed out earlier by Blue Nose, it is critical to have the right sail combo up, and with reefing it can be made to work.

My experience, personally and from reading, is that you need to do two things --

1. balance the rig with not too much head sail

2. make sure you are sailing close hauled, not even close reach, close hauled, so that when you tack to go to the heave to the clew of the jib is as far aft as possible; this is what provides the balance.

Many folks have written in saying I can't heave to, and we learn they're on a beam reach and wonder why it won't work. Of course ti won't because of the position the boat needs to be in when it "stops", i.e., at an angle to the wind, not wind abeam.

Keep practicing, it's a great and SAFE technique that is important to know.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Excellent points Stu.

Alot of sailing has to do with Ballance.

Edited by - on

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 09:03:50

Balance is such an important thing. I am just finished reading a great book called "A Voyage for Madmen" (highly recommend it) about a race in 1968 to be the first person to sail around the world solo nonstop completely self contained. In the book several of the best sailors lost their self steering "windvane" systems during huge storms in the roaring forties. Since they had to sail 24/7 they obviously couldn't sit at the tiller non stop. The amazing thing was they became so adept at balancing their sails that they would steer the boat for days by sail alone without tiller. I didn't think this was possible but they did it for 10,000 miles. They would balance their sails and go below and sleep for 8 hours without concern. They would also heave to in the biggest storms (60+ mph winds and 40-60 foot seas). There is so much to learn with experience.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 15:37:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 The amazing thing was they became so adept at balancing their sails that they would steer the boat for days by sail alone without tiller. I didn't think this was possible but they did it for 10,000 miles. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Two years ago I crewed in a race on the Chesapeake Bay in which the participants had to maneuver their boats around a marked course (triangular, as I recall) without touching the wheel or tiller, except in case of emergency, to avoid a collision. It was a very interesting exercise, but we found that we could do it by balancing the sails and by shifting our crew weight. In fact, the only way we could tack the boat was by shifting our crew weight. Tacking the boat by shifting weight was excruciatingly slow, but the boat did gradually come about onto the opposite tack. When we did it, the wind was fairly light, about 5-7 kts.

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