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A-Frame to Deck connection

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Prospector
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Canada
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Initially Posted - 08/05/2009 : 12:49:49

I have always raised the mast using "Armstrong Power". In order to escape our lake and get into big water, I need an A-Frame.

Last night I built a collapsable unit (folds down to 5 feet) out of 2X4's that can double as firewood if it proves too bulky to survive our trip. My trouble is that I'm not sure of how to attach the "feet" of the A-Frame to the boat.

Goin gthrough th earchives, I can see reference to bolting a fence hinge onto the bottom of the frame. Does this work by using one of th ecrew holes in thh hinge as a pivot and putting it in the spot normally alotted to the shrouds?

Can anyone supply a pic of how this attachment goes?

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 08/05/2009 : 14:19:01

I was thinking through how this whole A-frame thing works and remembered the "Sheers" competitions we used to have at Cadets when I was a kid.

Teams of about 6 kids would be given a load to lift (usually an old engine block, or a cask) and all the materials laid out to build a sheers.

We would line up and on "GO!" the clock would start. If memory serves me correctly our record was somewhere around 4 minutes for all the ropework done to raise the load. Of course memory cna be dubious. I remember learning to mouse the hooks by tying off th emousing beofre loading the rope into the hook, then just tightening th eloop on. It was a cheat, but it bought seconds when they counted. I don't remember one of these ever failing on us.

http://www.cadets.ca/content-contenu.aspx?id=70818

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 08/05/2009 : 17:20:35

A year ago I dropped my mast with a simple A-frame of 2x4's.

Here's the base of the A-frame attached to the chainplate eye for the forward lower shroud with a piece of heavy plastic coated wire.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 08/05/2009 : 20:27:58

I built an A-frame out of 2x4's. Near the bottom of each 2x4 I inserted a strong eye bolt and attached 2 D-shackles; one connects to the eye bolt and the other is to attach to the forward lower deck plates. If connected properly, there is enough room for the A-frame to raise up and down without distorting the D-shackles. Under each leg of the A-frame I place a small square of carpet to protect the deck. It also helps the slightly round off the edges of the 2x4's so they will rotate easier.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
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Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 05:28:32

Prospector,

Here is what I did: I used 1" steel electrical conduit for the A-frame and connected them to the forward lower chain plates. I used a 3/4" X 5" threaded gas pipe nipple to make the turn from the vertical and to give the A frame ends more room to articulate. Here is a great "Tech Tip" http://tinyurl.com/klb5tn

As you can tell, the A-frame connects to the nipple at one angle and the nipple connects to the chainplate at a different angle. This was the only tricky part. I used clevis pins to connect to the chainplate. I also HIGHLY recommend a simple mast crutch. The time it took build was nothing compared to the time and back ache that it saved. Here is what I came up with:

I have a tall rig which is heavier than the SR (different extrusion or so I've been told). Even with the heavier and longer mast, I was easily able to raise and lower it by myself. Of course, another person can make it easier, but the A-frame and mast crutch/support make this much less exciting. Also, another thing I learned... when you go to raise the mast, it is easy to get a shroud or turnbuckle caught or twisted. I used little pieces of velcro to hold the shrouds and turnbuckles in place until the tension held them in place. Worked like a charm.

Tom

Edited by - Tom Gauntt on 08/06/2009 08:58:07

Prospector
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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 08:06:11

Thanks everyone.

I think I will go with John P's idea and adopt the KISS principal. I was concerned that the deck would suffer but scraps of carpet will do the trick.

Tom, I love your mast crutch, but we will be underway for 2-3 days with the mast down, so I need to hold a rudder in that spot. I am now entering the stage of building a support that will be functional at 5.5 knots in narrow channels with powerboat wash. Fingers crossed.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 09:17:44

The rudder can, and probably should, be stored inside the boat for long distance travel. I had a cover made for the rudder on our C-22, like an extra long sail bag, that I can slip over it to keep from getting bottom paint on me or the boat. Works great! Any sailmaker or canvas shop can make one for you. Just send them the dimensions.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 10:17:21

Sorry Dave maybe I wasn't clear. We will be motoring down the trent canal. Without a rudder it would be a little difficult to navigate in and out of the locks.

I agree that when trailering the boat, the rudder should probably be removed.

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:04:26

When I used 2x4s for this appliation I drilled a whole in the deck end of each 2x4 and incerted a spare chainplate turnbuckle. The turnbuckle attached to a chainplate on each side using the chainplate pin and cotter key.

I have since wised up and made an a-frame (shear) from 1" steel conduit and attached as Tom shows only with a length of conduit rather than a steel nipple.

Edited by - aeckhart on 08/06/2009 11:05:20

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 14:51:07

Okay. Since you are going to be traveling by water with the mast down and will need the rudder, consider making a sawhorse type of support that will straddle the bench seats, with the cross-bar the same height as the bow pulpit. That should make it tall enough to walk under. If you use the metal brackets, available at hardware/building supply stores, to connect the 2x4's, it will come apart and fold easily for storage. Or make a rectangle out of 2x4's just wide enough to fit upright on the floor of the cockpit at the stern, add legs in "L" configuration to stabilize tipping forward, and tie it securely to the stern cleats and the ends of the traveler bar. Should leave you enough room for tiller movement.

Edited by - dmpilc on 08/06/2009 14:59:09

Prospector
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Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 15:05:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Okay. Since you are going to be traveling by water with the mast down and will need the rudder, consider making a sawhorse type of support that will straddle the bench seats, with the cross-bar the same height as the bow pulpit. That should make it tall enough to walk under. If you use the metal brackets, available at hardware/building supply stores, to connect the 2x4's, it will come apart and fold easily for storage. Or make a rectangle out of 2x4's just wide enough to fit upright on the floor of the cockpit at the stern, add legs in "L" configuration to stabilize tipping forward, and tie it securely to the stern cleats and the ends of the traveler bar. Should leave you enough room for tiller movement.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now we're on the same page...

I think straddling th eseats would be great for a shorter commute, but since this is days-long, I need to be able to open the fuel locker.

My plan right now, subject to change is to perch the frame on the transom, locked into the stern rail. More carpet scraps to protect the boat. I will post pics if I come up with a working solution.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
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Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 17:59:25

Prospector,

I'm not sure of all the logistical challenges you face with your trip, but having worked on Lil with the mast down, I can promise you, there is going to be a LOT of stepping over and squeezing under if the mast is across the cockpit. With the mast in the crutch and one end on the bow pulpit, the spreaders are right over the companionway. Going forward will get old quickly as will banging your noggin on the mast. If I were planning on on a long trip with the mast down, I would contemplate lowering the mast FORWARD using the boom and mainsheet and make a mast support that rested on the bow while leaving the base in the tabernacle. Of course the drawback is a 15' long narwhal horn that will make docking in a slip problematic if not impossible, but the plus side is the cockpit would be clear.

The other option is to lower the mast aft and have a crutch off to one side (probably the side opposite the outboard).

You might want to drop the mast aft and see how you like living with it in the way before you begin your trip.

Let us know what you come up with. Sounds like a great trip!

Regards,

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 08/06/2009 : 20:32:31

There is one other option. Have you seen the You Tube video by the guy who has to lower the mast every time he goes sailing because of a bridge he has to go under. He had a U-shaped, stainless steel mast crutch built that he attached to the stern rail support legs. It goes up and over the traveler and comes down on the other side, leaving him able to steer with the tiller. He doesn't have to remove the mast from the mast step. However, 2-3 days might be too long to leave a mast in that position, considering the inevitable stress levels on the step fof that long. I would at least tie the lower end of the mast down snug to the handrails.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 08/07/2009 : 06:28:04

In this pic: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_AUQaxQdhQi4/SgSn2aAY8bI/AAAAAAAAAEw/tN738MGoBPA/s1600-h/May+09+001.jpg you can see th emast stowed for the winter. We built a truss to hold the tarp high enough that I can work in th ecockpit without th etarp getting in the way. I would like to maintain that height, however this truss is too large to stow or store after we transit the canal.

I am thinking a goalpost type arrangement or similar that will sit on the cockpit floor.

Having the mast overhang either the bow or ster by more than a couple of feet isn't really practical in the canal locks. Thanks for the ideas though guys!

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 08/07/2009 : 13:06:47

Try this on for size (I haven't done it yet, just came to mind right now):
Buy 2 U-bolts with wing nuts and washers and bolt a piece of 1x4 (or 2x4)to the vertical supports of the stern pulpit so it is positioned just above the traveler bar. Next take a length of 2x4 long enough to go across the top rail of the stern pulpit with a few inches outboard on each end and cut angled notches so it will fit snugly on the rail short side up. You could even thicken the 2x4 at the rail notches by adding a short piece of 1x4 there. Shorten your existing truss or make another one just long enough to go from the lower board up to where you want the mast to be. Drill holes and connect it to both cross braces with 3/8" dia. bolts, washers, and wing nuts for easy disassembly and storage. Tie the cross piece securely to the stern rail where needed.

Edited by - dmpilc on 08/07/2009 13:11:10

Gloss
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Response Posted - 08/07/2009 : 13:33:08

I use John's method, only with a couple of pieces of scrap 1/4" line. I rounded off the end of my 2 x 4's with a belt sander. It works great, easy to set up and quick. I too like the KISS principle.
This is a really simple problem that doesn't need an elegant solution in my opinion, but I may be wrong

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 08/07/2009 : 15:17:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Try this on for size (I haven't done it yet, just came to mind right now):
Buy 2 U-bolts with wing nuts and washers and bolt a piece of 1x4 (or 2x4)to the vertical supports of the stern pulpit so it is positioned just above the traveler bar. Next take a length of 2x4 long enough to go across the top rail of the stern pulpit with a few inches outboard on each end and cut angled notches so it will fit snugly on the rail short side up. You could even thicken the 2x4 at the rail notches by adding a short piece of 1x4 there. Shorten your existing truss or make another one just long enough to go from the lower board up to where you want the mast to be. Drill holes and connect it to both cross braces with 3/8" dia. bolts, washers, and wing nuts for easy disassembly and storage. Tie the cross piece securely to the stern rail where needed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm having a hard time picturing this, but I think we are on the same page...

I'll hav eto post pics once my marvel of engineering is built. Off to the night race now. Here's hoping for a repeat of the first place finish...

Edited by - on

sweetlou
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 10:55:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 [quote]Originally posted by dmpilc
 
I'll hav eto post pics once my marvel of engineering is built. Off to the night race now. Here's hoping for a repeat of the first place finish...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi - Old thread alert!

What did you end up building to make the trip? I am thinking of moving my boat through the Cal-Sag, IL Waterway next week and will need to store the mast on deck.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 11:28:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sweetlou
 
Hi - Old thread alert!

What did you end up building to make the trip? I am thinking of moving my boat through the Cal-Sag, IL Waterway next week and will need to store the mast on deck.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not familiar with that waterway, but here is what we used...

A 4X4 will sit nicely in the factory mast step, and you can through-bolt it the same as the mast. We added a 2X4 on either side of it to make a sort of goalpost. This held the mast and prevented it from bowing in the middle. It also gave the pop-top something to rest against when open. Before you start construction, measure the height from your deck to teh top of the open pop-top to get a feel for the height of your support.

I still have the transom support at home. In fact the mast is sitting in it as I type this. You can almost see it in these pics.

Sadly, blogger lost most of teh boat pics I saved there. We built the support as follows...

1X5 (??) uprights start on the cocpit floor set into the chanel at the back of the cockpit where the scuppers are. They WILL block the drains. You would be best to stay away from open water. Cut the boards at an angle so they meet the pushpit wherer the uprights on either side of the traveller are welded. also be sure to use true 1" lumber. You want to have them as thick as possible, and you want them to sit in that groove. You may be able to notch 2X6's to get teh same effect. We used boards off a hardwood skid for this.

Screw a pair of 2X4's across the uprights to hold them in place. The 2X4's should be placed above the tiller position, but not by much. Keep the lower one as low as possible, and the upper one as high as possible. Once again, you want to be able to raise the pop-top while underway, So I would suggest that you measure the heigh of your pop-top off the cockpit floor before you begin building. Put teh upper 2X4 about 6" higher than the raised pop-top. For me the mast sits as if I were carrying it on my shoulder. The mast will rest on the upper 2X4 cross-piece. Leave teh cross-pieces with some material hanging out past the uprights. this will make it easier to lash the frame in place, or attach loadstraps, or screw in eyebolts.

To the upper 2X4 cross piece, attach a pair of uprights for the mast to sit between. I would wait to field fit these once the mast is down and in place.

Set the frame into the chanel on the back of the boat (where the cockpit drains) and lash it to the pushpit before you lower the mast. When you lower the mast, it will catch the mast for you. Once the mast is resting on the frame at teh transom, unbolt the mast from the step, and walk it forward to the pulpit. Rest the base of teh mast in the pulpit. Lash the mast to the pulpit. Place your Mid-mast support (the 4X4) in the mast step and secure with a bolt. Pivot the support up while someone holds up the middle of the mast. Once it is in place, lash the mast to teh bow, the mid-mast support, and the transom support. Using a cordless screwdriver, attach your upright mast holders to the transom support.

I think that pretty well describes the system. Feel free to ask more questions. we now use the system for our winter storage, so the transom support is in service as I type. Our only issue with it has been that one of the uprights has warped so it no longer sits nicely in that channel at the back of the cockpit.

Edited by - Prospector on 04/26/2011 11:35:45

Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 11:56:20

One further caveat - if your waterway was built for powerboats (not sail) beware bridge heights. We tried sneaking under one with the mast down, and took off our masthead instruments. You can see how low the mast was in the photos above, but we still managed to do some damage, losing our masthead instruments and anchor light. Luckily everythign we lost was replaceable and no permanent damage was done, but it was expensive. After that we left our MOB pole in the upright position everywhere we went so the bridge operators wouldn't challenge us on opening the bridges.

Don't hold back on having a swing bridge open, even if you think you can sneak under.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 12:03:48

Looks good, and simple to construct and break down for storage.

Edited by - on

sweetlou
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 12:26:03

One stupid question, was raising the pop-top a requirement of the system or of your cruise?

For fun here is the approximate route, all to avoid Lake Michigan with the mast on deck :)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&t=h&msa=0&msid=212591554411342031513.0004a1d6133c80cbddbdc&ll=41.720081,-87.63382&spn=0.229094,0.606308&z=11

Edited by - sweetlou on 04/26/2011 12:27:05

Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 12:32:56

We were motoring through a canal for 2 days with this arrangement, so we wanted to be able to get the top up. Plus moving around in teh cockpit is a lot easier with the mast higher up. Finally, in teh winter when we store the boat, this arrangement allows us to open up teh boat when we do our pre-launch scrub-down of the interior. All those fumes are no fun.

So I guess I required that the pop top be openable, but the alternative is to have the mast resting on the sliding hatch, which would make going below difficult. Whatever you do, I would want some support to hold the mast up off the deck. And be ready for the handling to be a little squirrely when a powerboat goes by at full throttle. You have no weight aloft to counter the keel below. The boat will swing for an extra cycle or two before settling down.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 12:38:27

Why not head for open water and sail or motor? Would it be possible to ship the mast across town?

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 12:44:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Looks good, and simple to construct and break down for storage.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks David! We actually hid it at a marina and then picked it up on the way home again. When we arrived at the end of the canal and Raised the mast, some powerboaters watched the process and were amazed that we could do that without a crane. Then I stood there scratching my head and asked if they knew of a good spot to store the frame.

One of the Powerboaters suggested that we shove it in under his picnic table and he would claim it as his own for the duration of our trip, saving us the cost/hassel of paying for storage at the marina. It worked out really well (and he made good cocktails). that was about here: http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF8&q=doral+marine&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=doral+marine&cid=0,0,12406271379245014863&ll=44.750436,-79.850296&spn=0.005219,0.013175&t=h&z=17&iwloc=A Where we got a slip right next to the pool and laundry. Perfect for a boat with kids aboard!

Edited by - on

sweetlou
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Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 12:57:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Why not head for open water and sail or motor? Would it be possible to ship the mast across town?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sailing isn't an option as the Chicago Loop bridge openings are "outbound" to the lake in the Spring, clearance is inadequate. Given the water conditions/temperature etc this time of year, motoring 9 miles in open water with the mast down isn't something I want to do.

If only there were someone in the Chicago area with a FK trailer they were willing to rent :)

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