Association Forum - How wrong was I? ColRegs question

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

How wrong was I? ColRegs question

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Member Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/30/2009 : 20:37:02

Let me set the scene a bit.
Rita & I took SL out for an afternoon sail today. We were heading northerly in Elliott Bay towards Magnolia which I realize means little to anyone who hasn't sailed off of Seattle. We'd been on the same course for the better part of an hour just moseying along waving to other boats, watching the parasailors, keeping an eye on the ferries, working boats, etc. and an ear on the radio.

There were several cruise ships that were getting ready to head out. There was a bit of chatter on the radio, but my main clue was the ship's horns indicating they were getting ready to head out.

Off to our starboard was a large cruise ship who had sounded it's final signal to get underway, and another off our port bow getting ready to back out into the bay from her pier. This one was maybe half a mile away or less, and the first one maybe 1000 yards (SWAG for distance). My thoughts were if I kept my course, the first one who would be approaching from my starboard would go behind me to give the second one plenty of sea room. Even though I was under sail and on starboard tack I had no thoughts of right of way for myself, I just didn't expect what the liner did. Instead of going behind me, they bore right down on us after they'd set out. They never tried to contact me, just started blowing their horn at me. I didn't want to try to tack into them, so I pinched up as tight as I could to make my course parallel to them and still keep steerage. By this time the Seattle Harbor Police were on their way with lights going, so I figured I was in for a ticket. I held my course as the cruise ship went by, and they probably came with 150 yards or so of us. We got scolded by the police for being within 500 yards of a passenger vessel, but that was about it, and they let us go with a "verbal warning" after taking down our registration number.

So here are my questions for the court:
How responsible am I for the course set by another vessel, especially one that wasn't under way when I was in their vicinity? If by their action I'm put inside the 500 yard zone, how is that my fault?

What should I have done? I was kind of busy maintaining steerage, I suppose I could have tacked away when I heard the horns indicating they were leaving, but is it my responsibility to know how soon they were going to get underway and guess what course they'd set after a series of horns sound? I could have also started my engine and motored away, but it didn't seem necessary since I could parallel his course, admittedly w/in the 500 yards though.

They never tried to contact me by radio, neither did the police, and I was monitoring 9,13,14,16 & 22a, so I could hardly have missed a call. I suppose I could have called them, but by the time I realized they weren't going to do what I expected, the damage was done.

I came away from it pissed off at both the police and the cruise ship because I didn't feel it was handled all that well by either of them, however I want your opinions on whether I was completely at fault, partially at fault, or should be exonerated. If nothing else we gave the tourists something to take pictures of.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - delliottg on 08/30/2009 20:40:00

Chris Z
Captain

Members Avatar

452 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 20:46:55

Clarify something for me. Did the liner pass you on your port side or starboard side?

I was told with the big ships, turn on your motor if you have to get clear. They are nothing to mess around with out on the water. Also, my brother has attended a few of the homeland security boating seminars that the coast gaurd put together. I think this was one of their concerns. He said they are very serious about the whole terrorist thing and you have to make sure you know these new rules on any intercoastal waterways.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 21:02:34

Chris,
They passed on my starboard side (with the police boat bracketing me on the port side). When they first set out, they were headed at me from about my starboard bow quarter, I turned to port out of their path so we ended up on parallel courses. They became the stand on vessel because of the course they chose coming away from their dock, and I understand they're not all that maneuverable when they're not moving very fast, but this is a brand new cruise liner, and I'd be willing to bet they have at a minimum, bow thrusters, and quite possibly, azipods, so they're very steerable, even at low speeds.

I completely understand the 500 yard/HS thing and I also know I could have handled the whole thing better, and probably the best plan would have been to either tack away when I first thought they were heading out, but I was afraid of tacking into their (what seemed be me the logical) path behind me, or we could have just motored away.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 00:11:02

David:

I sail on the Chesapeake, where we have tugs and barges, freighters, aircraft carriers, and the occasional cruise ship, just like you. It sounds to me as if you were sailing in the channel. Right-of-way in this situation had nothing to do with starboard tack or direction or anything else -- Restricted draft vessels always have right of way in a channel. If he passed you on your starboard side, then it doesn't sound as though you were on the starboard side of the channel, but in the middle or port side. You should have kept to starboard, or out of the channel completely.

When I've been in similar situations, I err widely on the side of caution. I either get out of the channel or luff up until the ship is past. In traffic, I drive on the right side of the road (channel).

Edited by - Even Chance on 08/31/2009 00:13:25

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3463 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 03:36:12

We have sightseeing ships in the upper Potomac and while nothing compare to a oceangoing cruise ship, they are still big. Our channels in the river are tight and so passing each other in the vicinity of say 50 yards is fine but when they blow their horn for leaving the dock, I have to make sure I am clear of them. I have seen some sailboats get in there way and it is beyond me what those on the sailboat were "not" thinking about when they dio not alter their course.

In your situation it seems like you just got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. If it was common knowledge that one has to be away 500 yards or more from a cruise ship, well then I would say that you probably needed to take action and put your motor on if tacking was not an option to get you free and clear.

The thing that has caught me off guard once or twice but I was still in okay position has been when a sightseeing ship has left the dock and takes a different route from the get-go. Almost always it is predictable what route they take but once in awhile they have altered their route and that throws me off since ZI may position myself based on their normal route.

Anyway, I would just chalk it off as an experience that had you right at that moment in a difficult position to figure out what to do. Only thing I am wondering about is don't ships sound off about 5 minutes earlier that they will be leaving the dock ? That has been my warning to stay clear and I alter my course at that time.

I know you brought this question up as a serious concern as to whether you sahould have done something differently but I have to tell you a silly thing I am faced with more than once....probably has happened 5-6 times. There is this small sightseeing "boat" double decker that plies the waters in the upper Potomac. The guy that runs this boat has the habit of approaching boats, usually me, purposely. He gets all onboard to yell over "Ahoy ! We are the Potomac Pirates !" One of these days, I am going to bring a water cannon or a large super soaker with me and fire off at him. It is funny...but annoying at the same time !! (Usually happens when I am drifting along at 1Kt.)

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/31/2009 04:53:03

windsong
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 05:29:35

I've been in your shoes, made similar decisions, and I know just how you feel.
Turn on the motor and race to a safe shore. It's not sexy, I know, but besides the obvious advantage of hull speed in any direction, under sail, if you get leeward of the big boat you can find yourself stalled, or worse, victim of a change in wind direction induced by proximity to the big boat.

Edited by - windsong on 08/31/2009 05:35:47

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 07:30:02

Thanks for your insights and opinions. To clear up a couple of things, there is no channel where we were, it's an open bay so unless he was restricted by Seattle Traffic (local coordinating agency) to that particular lane (which I don't know and intend to find out), the captain had a wide open bay to navigate in and simply chose the most direct route out from his berth.

I also know I'm responsible for knowing the ColRegs, and generally go out of my way to avoid large traffic, especially ferries which are a constant fact of life. In this case I probably should have just avoided the cruise ship's area completely, but it just didn't occur to me that it might be a problem. I've ghosted along the coast several times while they were heading in or out and never once had a problem till yesterday.

We also have tour boats that like to go right by us, a couple different companies (we were passed by the same company's boats twice yesterday, but they're generally respectful of our space, and usually don't bother us), and a couple of water taxis who seem to think they own the bay. I've learned to stay well clear of them as well, but we're restricted by our speed and if they want to come close there's not much we can do about it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 07:46:17

Michael is right. You were the give-way vessel based on the 500 yard zone, their "restricted maneuvering" rights in the channel, and the unwritten rule of tonnage. The fact that you were under sail didn't change your duty to get directly out of there--pinching up as much as you could doesn't count. Time to start the engine and make tracks. I'm sure you've already figured out that you needed to make different plans as soon as you knew the ships were preparing to depart.

With subs going in and out of the Groton base, I know I can't be around--no excuses. The USCG makes announcements on Ch.s 16, and the sub captain talks on 16 and 13. I stay about a mile off if I want to watch. Even then, I'm being watched by a gunboat.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/31/2009 07:54:24

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 09:05:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Michael is right. You were the give-way vessel based on the 500 yard zone, their "restricted maneuvering" rights in the channel, and the unwritten rule of tonnage. The fact that you were under sail didn't change your duty to get directly out of there--pinching up as much as you could doesn't count. Time to start the engine and make tracks. I'm sure you've already figured out that you needed to make different plans as soon as you knew the ships were preparing to depart.

With subs going in and out of the Groton base, I know I can't be around--no excuses. The USCG makes announcements on Ch.s 16, and the sub captain talks on 16 and 13. I stay about a mile off if I want to watch. Even then, I'm being watched by a gunboat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rule of tonnage - If you see someone coming at you that is bigger whilst under sail - TACK, go downwind - anywhere - wanna play maritime law? It is the Captain's responsibility to AVOID such situations. You deserve a ticket in my opinion. Furthermore, you should have heard them issue a "securite' call" and kept clear. Furthermost - you should have hailed them on 16 and requested a working frequency to work out your intentions. Any of those actions would have rendered your situation less-ticketable.

Sten - the safety curmudgeon

Edited by - on

KD4AO
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 09:52:42

The prudent thing to do would have been a turn to port, start the motor and boogie on out of their. Then, get a slip at Des Moines or Shilshole, out of the shipping channels. Of course this is somewhat sarcastic, I got on the list at shilshole in 1973 and am probably still on it. As Sten says, the Rule of Tonnage is the most important.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 10:34:17

I'm very happy I'm not sailing anywhere near a port. Don't have to worry about these things. It must get pretty hectic sometimes keeping track of all the commercial stuff

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 11:03:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 I'm very happy I'm not sailing anywhere near a port. Don't have to worry about these things. It must get pretty hectic sometimes keeping track of all the commercial stuff

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The military stuff is what's interesting. They usually have a big zodiac and young servicepersons with machine guns circling around the ship whenever it's anchored, making sure you stay outside their exclusionary zone. I'd hate to try to debate the COLREGS with those guys!

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/31/2009 11:05:11

piseas
Former Treasurer

Members Avatar

USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 11:33:08

David, While sailing with you earlier this year, I recall those huge ships but luckily they did not come towards us. As pissed as I get with them as they seem to want to get close to me, I motor away from them. There is no way I will play chicken. There must have been a huge wake that rattled you as well.
I am just glad your and Rita are ok.
My Rule Of Thumb, if they are bigger than me, get the hell out of the way. Far far away.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 13:03:09

David, being familiar with Seattle I can picture the circumstances very well. I appreciate you posting your experience. It gets us thinking and learning. On occasion we encounter large boats in the San Juans and and Gulf Islands. Your story re-enforces my intent to take all steps to be clear of them.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/31/2009 13:04:59

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 13:10:17

I took a look in Google Earth, and see what you mean by no obvious channel... But my take on it is that the very large ship had a pretty much predetermined course out around West Point or wherever, giving him the turning room he needs, possibly in a lane that allows incoming shipping. To him, you're one of any number of tiny waterbugs in the bay--he has little or no interest in negotiating with any of you, since that would suggest to all of you that his route is negotiable (which it would be with a another ship). He's gonna pull out and go, and the police are defending his right to do so (and the DHS zone).

Anyway, lesson learned... We're all learning.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/31/2009 13:15:42

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 13:17:10

The key here is communication. Hit em on 13 and watch your respect level increase. They invariably thank us for checking in. Too many sailors forget that the radio is a tool, so they (big ships) refrain from hailing us often as we mostly do not respond. I've seen this on the Chessy, the Delaware, the ICW, offshore...

When you hail a freighter or other large vessel, you either call the name or call the lat&long of the vessel in question. Request their advice on how to handle a situation and take it. Don't be surprised if they come back with something smart like, "let's pass wine to wine Cap."

We have passed many a vessel that were damn near right on top of us, but no one panicked becasue we were talking about it.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 08/31/2009 13:19:05

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 15:27:19

I think you did not deserve a ticket. Did the ship blast the horn 5 times at you? I don't think so. You can be disqualified here in a race if you cause that.

In retrospect you should have motored away on a right angle to the ship's course.

Here in San Diego we have lots of military and commercial traffic. I usually motor just outside the channel so I have no worries. If I'm sailing, I cross the channel ASAP and keep an eye out for the big boys.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 18:17:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...Don't be surprised if they come back with something smart like, "let's pass wine to wine Cap."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How genteel! Around here they say "See you one whistle." I still doubt a cruise ship is gonna talk to a 25-footer in port waters unless there's a really critical situation. You are not supposed to be where they need to even consider your presence.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 18:36:17

David,

I appreciate you posting this. Here in Galveston Bay there's a stretch of the Houston Ship Channel that's flanked on both sides by shallow spoil areas. When sailing down to Galveston there's a couple mile stretch where you can't get more than a 100 yards or so from the channel without getting into shallow water. There's not much room for maneuvering.

We mostly have freighters coming and going but I wonder how the CG wants us to handle the situation when we cannot maintain the proper distance. It's a rare day that you can make that stretch without at least one ship passing. I usually stay about half way between the edge of the channel and the spoil banks. It's definitely way less than 500 yards away when a ship passes. If you get too close to the spoils the water goes from 45-50' up to 4-6' and the wake goes from a minor hump in the water to a 8-10' wall of water. Don't ask how I know!

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 18:53:46

Wow, go away to work for a few hours...

I've thought a lot about this since last night when I first wrote this up.

Regarding the securite, I heard none, I did hear the two cruise liners working out what they planned to do, but that was after the guy in question was already underway and headed toward us.

They only honked at me twice (two blasts in quick succession). This is about the same time I noticed the police boat on it's way.

Dave, if you look in Google Earth again, you'll notice a large marina in between the two piers I mentioned, easily 8-10x the size of my marina, or larger. There are plenty of other small craft out there going in and out of it, right though the shipping channels.

Here's what I think I should have done when I realized the cruise ship was getting under way. I think I should have contacted them on 13 to ascertain their intentions. The reason I don't think I should have tacked to the south was because at the time, that's where I thought he was going to go. Doing so would have put me right back into his path. The next thing I should have done was start my engine to allow me to go wherever they weren't, as noted, at a right angle to their track. The winds were light & variable, I couldn't guarantee that I could have run off from them (which is why I should have started my engine).

I want to emphasize that at no point was I considering that I had right of way over him, to have assumed so would have been ludicrous.

As Steve & Randy noted, this is a lesson learned, and I appreciate the insights & criticisms. I knew I'd be excoriated a bit when I posted about it, but I wanted a better understanding, and I've got pretty thick skin, plus someone else might learn from it as well.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 19:29:09

It's a good lesson for all of us to learn, even us lake sailors. If I'm ever sailing on the coast, I'll remember the channel 13 suggestion.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 20:08:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 ...They only honked at me twice (two blasts in quick succession)...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Approaching from ahead, the means they intent to pass starboard-to-starboard. Coming from behind, that means they'll pass you on your port side. You're expected to agree by responding with two blasts. I'm not clear on how he was approaching you--could this explain the blasts?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...you'll notice a large marina in between the two piers I mentioned, easily 8-10x the size of my marina, or larger. There are plenty of other small craft out there going in and out of it, right though the shipping channels...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My point exactly. That big guy is not interested in dealing with that swarm, will almost never try to contact one of them, and is unlikely to respond to them. It's like the fire truck coming down the highway--he's not going to accept cell-phone calls from cars asking what to do. It's just not realistic.

Away from port or with smaller commercial vessels, things can be different as Sten suggests.

I think you've got it figured out. As I said, we're all learning, all the time (or we should stay home).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/31/2009 20:11:57

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5372 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 20:10:04

Sounds like a major quandary - the right of way thing. It is well understood that large vessels with limited steerage must be yielded to - full stop.

The problem I think David alluded to was that the large vessel's intentions were not known by an announcement, nor were they discernable by the vessel's movements. It was simply unclear what was expected.

I agree with the Ch13 call. I did that in New Haven harbor when crossing the channel when a tug was passing by with a barge. The Cap'n was very appreciative.

Consensus has it that you simply have to keep clear. If that means you turn tail and run like hell, then that's what you have to do.

I've finally made my plans for sailing up the CT coast, right past New London harbor where Dave Bristle warns of frequent submarines, cruise ships, fast ferries and the like.

I'm just hoping that no nuke sub decides to surface where I happen to be heaving to. Could you imagine that you're standing still in 80 feet of water and the depth gauge starts going off, telling you you have 50, now 40, now 30 now 20, now 10 feet depth under the boat?

Crunch, plus a ticket!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 20:17:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 ....I'm just hoping that no nuke sub decides to surface where I happen to be heaving to. Could you imagine that you're standing still in 80 feet of water and the depth gauge starts going off, telling you you have 50, now 40, now 30 now 20, now 10 feet depth under the boat?

Crunch, plus a ticket!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">They're all on the surface through The Race, and not that frequently. (Lots of ferries, tho...) What's your itinerary? I'm here all but Sat. pm through most of Sunday.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 20:24:28

Well, I guess I could have been arrested, too.

Sailing out of Newport harbor yesterday, we passed between a 500 foot long Caribbean cruise ship and Rose Island which is south of the Newport Bridge. We sailed about 500 ft from the island and about 100 ft from the ship. It was at anchor discharging passengers into 2 big launches with several others of the ship's crew watching from other spots near the waterline.

I waived to a uniformed crew member who waived back in a relaxed manner. The harbor entrance there was swarming with sail- and power-boats since the weather was clearing after Danny's rain on Saturday. We could have given the anchored cruise ship a wide berth to their south, but we were heading north.

So are the rules the same for large vessels or passenger vessels AT ANCHOR as they are for those underway?

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 05:24:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 Well, I guess I could have been arrested, too.

Sailing out of Newport harbor yesterday, we passed between a 500 foot long Caribbean cruise ship and Rose Island which is south of the Newport Bridge. We sailed about 500 ft from the island and about 100 ft from the ship. It was at anchor discharging passengers into 2 big launches with several others of the ship's crew watching from other spots near the waterline.

I waived to a uniformed crew member who waived back in a relaxed manner. The harbor entrance there was swarming with sail- and power-boats since the weather was clearing after Danny's rain on Saturday. We could have given the anchored cruise ship a wide berth to their south, but we were heading north.

So are the rules the same for large vessels or passenger vessels AT ANCHOR as they are for those underway?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeppers...The Coast Guard or the Newport Harbor Master is generally hovering about when the cruise ships come in. The Security Zone is what it is - a Security Zone. Heading south and going into the actual channel and then under the bridge would have been the correct proceedure. But with all of the boats in the area including little kids racing their dinks over in that area, they tend to ignore some stuff.

sten

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.