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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing keel failures

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/26/2002 : 10:22:02

Hi Folks,

I currently own a Catalina 22 swing keel and will try to sell her in the spring and buy a 25 swing keel. I keep reading about "catastrophic failures" or "sinkings" of swing keel 25's. Does this actually occur? Does anybody know of specific cases? Or is this just theories?
I plan on having my anticipated C25 moored in Knoxville most of the year, but plan on trailer sailering to the gulf or keys a couple of times a year. The swing keel sure is convenient to crank up when going aground in the shallow waters. I may consider a fin keel, but have heard of them referred to as "Danforth Keels". Is this a problem also.
Thanks in advance for your help, and I hope to join your community this spring
Frank Gloss
fgloss@knology.net

Frank

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2002 : 12:36:34

"...I keep reading about "catastrophic failures" or "sinkings" of swing keel 25's. Does this actually occur? Does anybody know of specific cases? Or is this just theories?..." - Frank Gloss

Swing keel boats are relatively safe and reliable if the swing keel mechanisms/assemblies are routinely inspected and properly maintained, you exercise good judgement in heavy weather, and you use the boat within it's designed capabilities(Don't sail around the world).

Having said that, yes, the cable that retracts the swing keel can fail and, if the keel was in the stowed position, could send the 1,500lb keel crashing into the head of keel trunk housing. The resulting impact has the potential to cause catastrophic damage. The photo below was submitted by Ken Cave who stumbled upon the damage during an inspection and it was caused by a previous keel impact. You can see the split that was caused by the keel trying to punch through the trunk.

<img src="http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/dragn5.jpg" border=0>

In another topic, Ken Cave also wrote,

"...Three years ago, when we were sailing from Nanaimo to Pender across the Georgia Straits in Canada, we were blown darn near into Howe Sound due to the heavy seas and swells.

When we finally got to Princess Louisa (probably the most beautiful place in the world!) I met an gentleman that owns one of the largest repair shops on the Great Lakes. He told me that he had lost his best friends due to the problems of the swing keel on the Catalina, and has repaired many others due to the same problem..." - Ken Cave

So is a catastrophic "swing keel failure" something to worry about? No,...but it is something to keep in mind especially if periodic and thorough maintenance isn't being performed on a swing keel boat.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

Edited by - dlucier on 10/26/2002 12:39:00

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2002 : 13:11:12

Poorly maintained swing keel boats have reportedly been damaged or sunk as a result of the keel dropping suddenly, although we have had a lot of swing keel C-25s at our freshwater lake for over 20 years, and it has never happened here. The problem seems to be more likely if you keep the boat in salt water. Generally, if you maintain the boat well, and don't try to use it as a bluewater cruiser, I don't think the hazard is significant, but that is just one person's opinion.

When I was a newbie at sailing, I liked the idea of the swing keel for the same reason that you do, i.e., if you run aground, it will be easy to get free. Since then I have come to the realization that it's better yet if you don't run aground in the first place. Then you don't need a vulnerable mechanical device to help you get free. At my home lake, my fin keel C-25 (4' draft) has touched bottom about three times in over 20 years. At home, you learn where the shallows are, and you just stay away from them. When cruising in Florida, or other unfamiliar waters, you have to get charts that tell you where the water is deep, and you just stay out of the shallows. The last time I cruised the Gulf coast, I chartered a boat with a 5 1/2 ft. draft, which is generally considered rather deep for Gulf coast cruising, and, by following the charts, never had a problem. When you get to Florida and see all those boats that are 40-50 ft., and bigger, you realize that most of them have more than 4 ft. draft, and they are able to get around without swing keels.

The swing keel does make it easier to trailer and launch the boat. In some places, the water might be so shallow that you can't get to your slip without cranking up the keel. But, if you don't have a special need for a swing keel boat, a fin or wing keel boat is probably preferable, because you don't have to maintain the keel winch mechanism. That having been said, if I were buying now, and found a really nice swing keel C-25 in good condition, I would not be reluctant to buy it.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2002 : 22:04:24

Have a friend who had a swing keel (not Catalina) that sunk during a storm (remenants of a hurricane) on a tidal river. That environment provides a lot of forces on the keel and work to damage the centerboard trunk. Any how when the storm came up the river the keel let go, and the boat found itself on the bottom. My friend said he would never again have a swing keel in the environment of a tidal river. He replaced his non-Catalina with a C25 fin keel and is much happier, and sleeps much better when a severe storm comes up the river!

That said, swing keels have a place in in alkes (Like Knoxville) and if you plan, really plan to trailer sail.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk

Edited by - on

Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

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USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2002 : 09:54:42

I have owned a swing keel boat for 15 years and have never had a problem with the keel. The key is maintaining the system and checking it for possible problems. I have a Catalina 25 and for the last 5 years have replaced the keel and ball twice. The cost of the cable and ball is cheap insurance. I replaced it when I got the boat and then at the beginning of this season. I checked the cable and ball and there was no wear. The boat is sailed on the Chesapeake Bay and I enjoy the option of bringing up the keel. The cable is important but also check the winch. I replaced mine at the time of purchase. The boat sails well. Enjoy the hum of a keel cable when the wind is 14 knots.

Edited by - on

tblanco
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 00:37:13

I have a 1982 swing keel which I have owned since 1984.

During the twenty years I have owned the boat it has gone through periods of heavy use in San Diego Bay and out into the Pacific six to eight miles out. Also long periods of neglect in which the boat was parked at a local marina, without me knowing if the keel was up or down. (up to eight months!)
I have to clarify that when I bought the boat I didn't get a manual, my only experience in sailing had been lasers, lido's and racing on a "SolCat" catamaran. I also didn't have the enormous benefit of the tremendous amount of shared knowledge shared on this web page by so many kindhearted people.

Thus, maintenance on the boat has not been the best, during the time I have owned it, the boat has been out of the water only three times to have the bottom painted by myself and some friends with guidance from a marina.

The keel only received a cursory inspection of the bolts which hold the pin, I changed the cable once, made it myself at a local West Marine. Each time the boat was out of the water the keel was sanded and received several coats of paint and a new zinc. I tried to reach as far into where the keel pivots with the paint brush to cover most of the keel.

The winch has never been replaced, neither has that ball that serves to prevent the cable from damaging the fiberglass, I still have to check that. Nedless to say the pivot pin is the original one from 1982!

Due to some economic problem I almost lost the boat for failing to pay dock fees, however, a kind lady gave me a brake and I was able to remove the boat before they auctioned it.

The boat was anchored at the south end of San Diego Bay for Six months while I tried to buy a cheap trailer. During these six months I had nightmares of the boat sinking, primarily because I had read, on this web page, about the disasters that may happen to swing keel Catalina's.

I'm happy to say the boat is sitting on a trailer at home and I have begun to work on her to do all those many chores that should have been taken care of so long ago.

The keel is still attached.

I wonder though if there is any record with regard to the longevity of the bronze pin. Mine is now 20 years old !! Do I hold any record?

I'll know when I take the pin out and replace it if I am right or wrong, but it would seem to me that the most critical aspect of the swing keel is the cable and the possibility of it breaking.

Yet again I may be the luckiest guy in the world to still have my boat and what's more with a keel still attached. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Just thought I would share my experience (BETTER SAID LACK OF IT )
with you nice folks out there. Also to thank you all for opening my eyes with regard to maintenance of this fine boat.

Tony

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce31b3127cce9152cdadfc450000001010" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce39b3127cce91684562f8c90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 01:52:14

I wonder though if there is any record with regard to the longevity of the bronze pin. Mine is now 20 years old !! Do I hold any record? - Tony

Hi Tony,

If you're talking about the pin that holds the turning ball in place, then maybe my boat has the record ... she was built in 1977, and the turning ball and pin weren't replaced until this summer. The turning ball had seized and the cable was slowly wearing away one side of it. Here is a photo:

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce36b3127cce9160663eb7830000001410" border=0>

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

gerdo
Navigator

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107 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 09:12:38

I too have a 1982 swinger. Original keel blocks and pin. New cable two years ago. Will pull boat this December. Plan to replace keel winch. The top plate of it is bent into a V but still works. Will also drop keel replace blocks, pin and bolts and weld a bushing into keel. The hole in the keel has wallowed badly and in up position keel flops back and forth.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 10:21:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> although we have had a lot of swing keel C-25s at our freshwater lake for over 20 years, and it has never happened here. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Steve M. I was talking to somebody in Fairfield Marina, early this last spring, with a c25 who said his cable broke on him while the boat was moored. It did not result in his boat sinking but he did notice it via leaking water. I was not sure how he could notice water where it wasn't supposed to be without sinking. He said he motored over to the J hoist at Hanna Creek to have it pulled out. I guess that would indicate the dammage was not that bad?

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628 Sea Major

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 12:16:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I was talking to somebody in Fairfield Marina, early this last spring, with a c25 who said his cable broke on him while the boat was moored. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I hadn't heard about it, but swingers can sure save themselves a lot of grief if they will leave the keel down at all times, and inspect and maintain the cable and mechanism periodically.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 14:35:08

OK, my Cat is a fin, but I did have a Santana 21 with a swing keel for 25 years. I replaced the cable on it twice because it looked frayed at the top. On a Santana this is not an easy job because you have to take the whole keel and keel hinge off. It is only 550lbs, but still a pain. When removed I found that it was only the first foot or so that was a little frayed. Better safe than sorry. In the 25 years we had it the keel never once fell off or even gave us a worry about falling off.
This last season a fellow with an old venture 19, his dad sold him, was sleeping in his boat and woke up around 4 in the morning by water lapping at his sleeping bag. He and some others that were in their boats got it to the boat ramp and on a trailer that happende to be in the yard. They found that it was leaking around the hinge.
Kind of a scarry way to wake up.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - on

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