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80 year old man rescued

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Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2009 : 08:58:59

There Is still something that wasn't made very clear. What exactly was the fellow's problem when he asked for assistance? Did he become overwhelmed with the task ahead or did he have health problems? Was there a mechanical problem? Was it too rough for him?

Edited by - on

topyachtbroker
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2009 : 09:53:05

While I can't say for sure, I understand that he was at sea for more than a week. He was only about 100 miles out, so he must have either turned back, spent a lot of time hove-to (which he should've done and collected himself for a day), or just plain lost. My familiarity with mal de mer is that in a short time you're severely dehydrated, and probably not eating, quite undernourished. All of which points to very poor judgment. And that without a doubt precipitated the call for help. The quote says he reported he could "no longer fend for myself."
Have no doubt, and as I said previously, the Gulf of MX in Winter is a place no one should be. Only the strongest and toughest and most experienced will continue on and not turn back.
I've seen this more times than I can count.
End.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2009 : 10:51:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by topyachtbroker
 Sheesh!! Hey, I just sell 'em! Please try to remember that I was the listing broker. My legal (fiduciary) responsibility is to the person who contracted me - the seller. I go one step further with OTHER BROKER'S CLIENTS and try to offer good advice. That is beyond my duty. It is the SELLING BROKER's responsibility to find the correct boat for the buyer.
Again, I tried to set Capt.

??? Ketchum on the right course,

Anyone - ANYONE - can safely navigate the GICW provided they first GET SOME KNOWLEDGE!

Don't take me to task for someone else's failings, particularly after I've provided all of the best advice they'll need.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not to quibble too much, but uh - you would have been the SELLING Broker had you relisted it.

Not everyone can safely navigate the ICW - I know this first hand. Power vessels with a 3 foot draft run aground. Some people do not belong out here - Correction, MOST don't belong out here from my viewpoint.

I don't consider Mr. Ketchum a "Captain" based on your description of the difficulties he experienced. Mister seems appropriate, or maybe "Sailor" or "Skipper"...

I agree that the GICW can be handled by most, but as we have a 6'6" draft and an airdraft of 59.5' we cannot do much of the GICW. I have looked at the charts as we are planning to move around to that side at some point, however we have not done the GICW - and I hope not to have to do too much of it. I hate ditches - much rather have some open water under me.

That being said, can you provide us with some "local knowledge" as to the weather conditions he might have been experiencing at the time? I agree with your assessment of seasickness and the potential for complete helplessness. We carry meds in every form including suppositories for this and other offshore issues - If you cant hold it down you are in trouble.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5906 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2009 : 11:59:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking

I don't consider Mr. Ketchum a "Captain" based on your description of the difficulties he experienced. Mister seems appropriate, or maybe "Sailor" or "Skipper"...[/i]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting point... I'm not a maritime lawyer, but, by definition, the title "captain" does not denote that a person has demonstrated a high level of skill in the art and science of seamanship. It simply refers to any person who is in command of a vessel, and who is thus charged by law with responsibility for the operation of the vessel.

If the Coast Guard boards your boat, one of the first questions they'll ask is "Who is the Captain?" In asking that question, they are not trying to determine who knows the most about seamanship. They want to know who is in command of the boat, because, if they are going to cite anyone for a violation, that's the person who is going to get the ticket, even if he is the least skilled person aboard.

Anyone who owns and is in command of a boat is legally the "Captain," regardless of his skill level, and he has a legal right to exercise command over everyone aboard. Thus, one should be careful who he goes sailing with. In an emergency, you might have a legal duty to carry out his commands.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2009 : 13:30:56

Getting back to the theme of listening... Some old salts give good advice oriented to the experience level of the listener. Some give advice based on their own prowess (real or imagined)... "Aw, 'taint nuthin... I've gone all the way across ten times at this time of year..." The notion that Mr. Ketchum would've been ready to single-hand across the Stream to the Bahamas and then not run aground when he got there is dubious... The Ditch isn't going to teach him what he needs to know, and the Gulf seems to have already shown him that there's a lot he'd have to learn. There's almost no way, given what I've read so far, that the odds would be strongly in his favor. Luck could get him there, but luck might win the lottery for me, too. (I don't buy tickets--the odds are strongly not in my favor.)

Sorry if it seems we're picking on you, Dennis. You apparently gave him some good advice and what I'll call some questionable advice. He ignored the former and was perhaps planning to follow the latter, so Poseidon gave him a spanking.

As to whether there's been enough on this subject, you're subjecting yourself to a piece of the World Wide Web here--the world will decide when there's been enough!

Fortunately, this is a pretty docile, mutually supportive group--one of the best on the web. I haven't looked at S/A to see how they're punishing Mr. Ketchum, but I'll advise against jumping into that pot!

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2009 : 17:25:51

First, a very Merry Christmas to all!!

Wow, I guess I need to come back and check in on the forum more often! This thread hits close to home on several counts. . .

1) Living in Kemah, where the "Enchantress" departed from, a buddy and I are almost certain that we saw Ketchum on "Enchantress" about two weeks before his departure, when we were coming into Kemah. We both remember passing an older man, on a Downeast (my buddy is fairly certain it was, I'm not), apparently solo, headed out and commenting on how good it was that someone of his age would still be out on the water. The name of the boat was either "Princess" or "Enchantress"; we can't remember for certain.

I can attest that the weather during the period Mister/Capt Ketchum was "at sea" was anything but favorable. I haven't left the dock since Nov 28th because of it.

Looking at a weather blog for Galveston during the ten days which he was at sea shows daytime temps on avg in the upper 50s, mid to upper 40s at night. There were a couple of days with highs only in the mid 40s and lows near freezing. Over that period we received almost 4.5 inches of rain and winds averaged 10-15 with several days 15-25, peak gusts near 35. There have been a lot of low-vis, foggy conditions, too. The day he called for help was one of the worst and the forecast for the next day was bad as well.

2) In regards to Dennis, (topyachtbroker), I'm sure he won't remember me, but I met and spoke with him on numerous occasions back in 2001 when I was in the market for a boat. I was considering a C-27 he had listed at the time and a Hunter 26 as well (yes, I'm ashamed to admit the H-26 interest, but it was the trailer-ability that intrigued me). He was extremely helpful and knowledgeable and I never once got the feeling that he was trying to push me into a purchase. In fact, after several discussions with him, he suggested looking into the C-250, since I wanted trailer-ability. After being unable to find a reasonably priced used one at the time, he suggested that I could order one new for just a bit more, which I did in early 2002. He is not a Catalina dealer and knew that by going the "new boat route," he would lose a sale. His suggestion was indeed the right course for me. While from the outside it does seem questionable that someone would recommend to Ketchum not to sell once reaching Kemah but rather continue on, I think Dennis wouldn't have done so if he didn't think it was within Ketchum's ability (given certain guidelines).

4) The Gulf indeed has the ability to turn into a witch in short notice this time of year. Two years ago when two friends were bringing my Passport from Panama to Kemah in early November, they encountered a weather system which was much stronger than forecasted. Ten hours of rain, winds 35-40 with gusts to 60 and 20-25 ft seas. . . glad I was still in Houston and yes, they are still good friends!

One had crossed the Gulf 28 times and said it was the worst, yet.

Here's a link to the latest on Ketchum and his condition as of yesterday: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6782618.html

Apparently his boat has been towed in and he in fact does have sailing/cruising experience, albeit from some time ago. He seems pretty hardy. The fact that he was out for ten days, in that weather, before calling for help must speak for something to his abilities (although he does seem confused about an earlier call to the Coast Guard which was 'declined').

Cheers!

Edited by - bren737 on 12/24/2009 18:15:06

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2009 : 22:07:35

I wish I hadn't read that. Mr. Ketchum (now 75) appears to be a sad, lonely case who will let others (the USCG) deal with his handicap (?), whatever the cost in emotions or dollars. Grandchildren?? What grandchildren?? What family?? What happened there?? I'm outa here. I just hope he doesn't take anyone with him.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2009 : 07:24:05

I just stumbled across this -->> http://www.lakesidesailing.com/CharterInfo.asp#N27

Scrolling down through the list of boats to charter is a Down East 32' named Enchantress. Lakeside Sailing School is located in Kemah, TX where Mr Ketchum's trip began.

Edited by - GaryB on 12/27/2009 07:24:31

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2009 : 10:18:28

He owns this boat - at least on paper.... http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/pls/webpls/cgv_pkg.vessel_id_list?vessel_id_in=583577

Note that the depth is listed as 7 feet 4 inches. Nice documentation and title preparations.

sten

Edited by - on

topyachtbroker
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2009 : 10:29:25

Hull depth, as used in the admeasurement of yachts, does not reflect the vessel's draft.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2009 : 11:08:31

Here's an apparent [url="http://sv-gaviota.blogspot.com/2008/09/sv-gaviota.html"]sister-ship[/url] for sale... Lots of nice pix. Full keel with 4'9" draft--not that deep for a 32-footer.

There's also a [url="http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Downeast-Cutter-2085834/Clear-Lake-Shores/TX/United-States"]1977 DE-32[/url] for sale on Galveston Bay--Owner will consider a real estate trade. Sounds like Mr. Ketchum has had enough. Maybe he should pick up a little C-25 and enjoy the bay.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/27/2009 11:34:57

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2009 : 11:51:25

Dave,

The sistership is a beauty! Looks like a baby Gozzard.

As for the one for sale here in Clear Lake, check out the listing date on the bottom of the ad: Sept 18, 2009. Long before he decided to press on for the Gulf. . . maybe one of those "standing ads" that people maintain just in case the right offer comes along.

Indeed a strange situation.
-------------
Gary,

I think some of those boats in that rental fleet are "leasebacks" to help defray the costs. Definitely the same boat. Check your email this afternoon if you get a chance. Didn't get your text til late. . .

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 08:05:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Here's an apparent [url="http://sv-gaviota.blogspot.com/2008/09/sv-gaviota.html"]sister-ship[/url] for sale... Lots of nice pix. Full keel with 4'9" draft--not that deep for a 32-footer.

There's also a [url="http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Downeast-Cutter-2085834/Clear-Lake-Shores/TX/United-States"]1977 DE-32[/url] for sale on Galveston Bay--Owner will consider a real estate trade. Sounds like Mr. Ketchum has had enough. Maybe he should pick up a little C-25 and enjoy the bay.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

4'9" is before you put all of the crap that is your life aboard!

We have filled up a 40 footer in no time. We are documented as 5.5, yet she had her waterline raised and we crudely with a tape measure verified 6'6" which is what the surveyor and the previous owners said in their individual reports. Hinckley Yacht Services in Savannah did her last bottom job and was where we saw a rare sistership and her waterline was 6'3" yet she too was registered as 5.5. She just wasn't cruising.

How is it that Capt. Ketchum's vessel (Thanks for the clarity Captain Milby) is registered as 7'4" and my vessel and a sister ship are registered as 5.5? How is admeasurement administered or admeasured as the case may be? I understand it to be a shipping mechanism probably designed for extracting tolls from passing ships through the Panama. But we are 39.2 as documented and I have always been told that she was a 39'6" vessel before talking about the windvane and other accoutrements on the bow.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 12/29/2009 08:10:44

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 09:24:23

For USCG documentation, the Depth for a sailboat with a "distinct keel" is from the gunwale (less caps and rails) amidships to the bottom of the hull (top of the keel). For a sailboat with an "integral keel"--part of the hull, as on the full-keeled DE-32--it's from the gunwale to the bottom of the keel. The distinction between "distinct" and "integral" is a bit vague (or indistinct if you will).

Length is the hull only--no platforms, sprits, anchor rollers, etc.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/29/2009 09:25:29

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2009 : 06:09:33

Thanks Dave! That would explain it - I guess...So if your keel is bolted on rather than encapsulated as part of the hull, you are taxed less because it is possible to remove said keel and make her float anyway??? I do appreciate that someone almost always has the answer here - a lot of times it's this stinkpotter guy

- but the logic of all of this defies me thus far.

BTW - based on Daves explanation, 5'5" is pretty accurate. I'll double verify at next haulout.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 12/30/2009 06:12:36

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2009 : 07:50:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...So if your keel is bolted on rather than encapsulated as part of the hull, you are taxed less because it is possible to remove said keel and make her float anyway???...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When you think about a full-keeled boat like a Pacific Seacraft or Cape Dory (the ones I know best), first, the keel is not very deep, and second, it is almost impossible to define where the true "bottom of the hull" is.

On the other hand, when you think about the big sleds at the other end of the spectrum, the keel is very deep and has little to do with the hull form or structure (except for the puzzle of keeping it from falling off).

Anyway, it's "stinkpotters" after all who write the rules!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/30/2009 07:53:30

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