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Full Batten Mail sail

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skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/05/2010 : 09:32:55

I am in the process of getting a new main sail for Elan. Several people have said that I should strongly consider having either all full battens or full battens for the top two battens. Obviously there is more cost involved for building a mainsail with full battens rather than the more traditional short battens.
I am soliciting opinions about the whole full batten thing from this prestigious group. So here is your chance to sound off on this topic. I'm interested in who has them and why. Thanks in advance.

Steve Krenz
`Elan
1978 SR/SK #482
Santa Fe, New Mexico

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 11:03:48

Check this site. I bought 3 sails from them last season and they performed as advertised. I replaced a nice Doyle full battened main with a loose footed (top two battens full) North and the difference was significant. Construction quality was excellent... they're made in Sri Lanka. I didn't give them any specific instructions... just told them to make it fast and legal...they did. The price was competitive too.

http://www.northsailsdirect.net/

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 11:14:27

Loose footed and full battens!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 11:20:04

1. What are your most common wind conditions? How much variation?
2. Do you race?
3. Do you have Lazy Jacks? A topping lift?
4. Do you take the sail off the boom frequently or once a year?

Not to demean the knowledge of this prestigious group, but if you Google "full battens", you'll get some good pro/con discussions from several sailmakers and other experts.

Edit: Another vote for a loose foot! (You might have to upgrade your out-haul.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/05/2010 11:30:39

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 11:54:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 1. What are your most common wind conditions? How much variation?
2. Do you race?
3. Do you have Lazy Jacks? A topping lift?
4. Do you take the sail off the boom frequently or once a year?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To answer your questions:
Common wind conditions: I sail both on inland lakes which can get very windy very quickly and in the gulf off of Corpus Christi. So essentially all conditions.
Racing: Only occasionally around the cans
Lazy Jacks: No
Topping Lift: Yes
I take the sail off of the boom once a year.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 12:07:54

One question that has been raised about full battens is the increased weight aloft. Can anyone comment on this issue? Also, for those of you who have full battens, did you need to make serious mast track changes like going to Harken sail tracks for full batten mains or were you able to use the typical slug and slot method of the existing mainsails?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 13:42:09

We have a full batten main and use the regular sail slugs. Works just fine. I do lubricate the track and slugs with SailKote periodicaly.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 14:03:22

I have the Ulman Ventura (Catalina Direct) full batten, loose footed mainsail. I had flattening reef/cunningham and 2nd reef points added with sail numbers, insignia, and telltales. The sail cost $1150. This is a very high quality sail with quality batten pockets. After a 16 months and about 200 days sailing, the sail is slightly stretched in the lower portion. The sail still can be adjusted to be totally flat. Leech line needs a little tension in the big winds.

Full battens are best in lower winds. Weight difference is insignificant. Full battens can be adjusted to make the sail fuller or flatter. The loose foot is great.

I wouldn't choose anything else.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 15:18:21

Count another vote for full batten and loose footed.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 16:11:31

Glad I saw this thread.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2010 : 06:54:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 

Full battens are best in lower winds. Weight difference is insignificant. Full battens can be adjusted to make the sail fuller or flatter. The loose foot is great.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You have it backwards, Jim. Full battens are LESS adjustable than partial battens. Think about it -- they make the sail stiffer, which is their purpose. Yes, they are adjustable, and they bend, but not as much as partial battens and sailcloth.

In less wind, you want MORE curve to the sail: it's the difference between the fat wing on a Piper Cub and the razor-thin wing on a F-18. People who sail in SF Bay, where it's always windy, like full battens. Here in the Chesapeake, where in August the best sail is made of metal, we tend towards partial battens. That's why when I ordered a sail for the Chesapeake, I got two full battens at the top (where it's windier) and two partials below. It's been an excellent choice.

It's the same for genoa car position for our foresails -- in lighter winds, we move the block forward to create more curve and power-up the sail; in bigger winds we move it aft to flatten the sail and depower it.

That being said, there's consensus that all-full battens help a sail last longer and keep its shape better. And, I'm all for loose footed mainsails.

As with most boating decisions, I find it wise to talk to knowledgeable sailors IN YOUR AREA about what works.

Edited by - Even Chance on 01/06/2010 06:58:22

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2010 : 09:28:12

Full battens are more adjustable because you control the pre-tension of the pockets and thereby shape the sail. Setting the pocket tension for your wind conditions is very effective, while a short batten sail is a hanging bag in light air the full batten can still be a perfect foil.

full battens, loose foot

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2010 : 09:58:16

The full battens on the Ulman sail are fully adjustable from flat to deeply curved. I've never seen any way to adjust partial battens.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2010 : 10:31:54

I haven't seen it, but I've heard that a single leech-line can simultaneously adjust all of the full battens in a sail for the amount of fullness or flatness you want. My sources say it gives much better shape in very light air.

I'm personally convinced that a sail's fullness should be a horizontal bend around a vertical axis. That's why a loose foot is so effective in light air or off the wind. Tensioning full battens induces that horizontal bend when light air might not. With a bolt-rope foot, easing the out-haul does very little, and using the topping lift to lift the boom bends the sail around the horizontal axis, directing the air upward rather than astern, and twisting off the top of the sail. (The telltales tell the tale.) A shelf-foot simulates a loose foot to some degree, but requires a flattening reef in heavier air.

I'm totally sold on a loose foot, and would probably go with full battens--even if just to eliminate flogging. I like the way a Hobie sail just sits quietly when luffed up in a good breeze.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2010 : 11:58:03

Has anyone had any dealings with The Sail Store? They sell FX sails and stock sails for Catalinas.
http://www.thesailstore.com

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2010 : 17:57:42

You don't adjust the partial battens -- you adjust the foot of the sail. Dacron bends a heck of a lot easier than a fiberglass batten. If your wind conditions change mid sail, are you going to drop the sail to re-tension full battens? I don't think so.

North sails might know something about the subject: http://www.northsailsdirect.net/Battens.htm

"a hanging bag in light air?" Wow.

I'm not discounting full battens in any way: I have two of them. If I sailed somewhere else, I might have four. Steve, talk to local folks about what works where you sail.

Edited by - Even Chance on 01/06/2010 18:21:42

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2010 : 18:50:02

When we talk about how full battens extend the life of a sail by protecting them from flogging, how much of a concern is that to most of us? We all flog our sails a little every time we raise them, but that’s normal. It isn’t the kind of flogging that significantly damages your dacron sails. (Any flogging at all is deadly for laminated racing sails, but that isn’t the type of mainsail used by most C25 sailors.) Do your sails flog often, other than when raising them or lowering them? The sails of most inland lake sailors and coastal cruisers don’t, because they usually either don’t go sailing when the wind is really blowing hard, or they take their sails down when the wind pipes up past their comfort level. The protective quality of full battens is primarily important to long distance blue water cruisers, because, they sail all day and night, in all weather, and they need sails that are triple stitched, and have leather chafe protection and full battens, and anything else that can help their sail hold up under such intense use, when the wind might be blowing in the 30‘s or more day-after-day.

The North sails that I bought when I bought my C25 in 1981 were still good, fast sails when I sold it, about 7 years ago, and they didn’t have full battens. Most C25 sailors don’t plan to keep their boats for 23 years or more, so longevity in their sails really isn’t very important to them. If longevity and hard use aren’t particularly important to you, then why else might you be willing to pay extra for full battens?

It is true that full, adjustable battens are used by many racers, but it is equally true that most racers don‘t really know how to use them, and, if they did know how, they wouldn‘t bother to adjust them from race-to-race anyway. I have crewed with many experienced racing sailors on the Chesapeake Bay who have expensive racing mainsails with all the bells and whistles that they never use. I have been crewing on racing boats on the Bay since I retired about 8 years ago, and have never once seen anyone adjust an adjustable batten., even when the wind died and the sails desperately needed to be optimally trimmed for light air. That's why I think full, adjustable battens are OK for the top echelon of world class racers, because they know how to use them, and they do use them, and because they use mainsails with a huge roach that needs to be supported, but they're not the best choice for the rest of the racing or sailing world. Unless you know how to use the adjustable battens, and intend to actually use them, buying them is an unjustifiable expense. In fact, if you have them and don’t use them, they actually detract from your boat’s performance, because they add weight to the sails without increasing performance. Moreover, I believe the average racer will do better with the top two battens being full, to help support a big roach, and a loose-footed mainsail.

The most important controls which shape the mainsail are the outhaul, and the device used to tension the luff, whether your boat uses a downhaul or Cunningham or halyard to tension the luff. The neat thing about a loose-footed mainsail is that the wind itself plays a part in shaping the sail. You shape the sail to a certain extent by the amount of tension that you put on the luff and foot of the sail, but the loose sailcloth is then free to take the shape of the wind as it passes over the sail. If you have adjustable battens, you have to know what shape is correct for each wind speed, and you have to adjust the battens accordingly. Because the sail is shaped largely by the wind, any wrinkles are primarily caused by the wind, and it’s easier to figure out what adjustment needs to be made to eliminate the wrinkle.

If you don’t intend to adjust the full battens, and don’t actually need them for long-term durability, you’ll probably get better performance overall with the top two battens being full, and you won't waste your money on a tool you never use.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2010 : 13:07:44

+1 on loose footed, -1 on full battens (for racing)

I agree with what Steve said. Full battens are great when you need a minimal amount of adjusting and/or want to extend the life of the sail. For racing, you need to be able to adjust the sail on the fly, all the time. I'm game for fulls on the top, and depending on the sail/use even the top 2.

Here's a pretty good discussion on full battens I found a while back, and this pretty much sums it up:
"Batten length does not really improve the shape of a brand new sail, it just keeps an older sail looking new longer."

http://www.pineapplesails.com/articles/fullbatt.htm
(I've never used, or even seen, one of their sails so I cant judge the quality of the loft - but the info is good)

Jim

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