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Docking: Bow first or back in?

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TakeFive
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Initially Posted - 01/30/2010 : 06:03:01

Hi everyone. I apologize if this topic has been beaten to death. I searched and read many reference to docking, but could not find it addressed directly.

I will probably end up buying a C250 (my first keel boat) and need to put a deposit on a slip in a few days. I am trying to figure out where in the marina I would like to be, and that decision would be influenced by whether I back in or pull in bow first. I hope she ends up having some decent prop walk (15 HP Honda outboard), since in my experience that's the best (only?) way to turn at slow speed unless you have full rotation of the outboard (which I won't). So if I back in I would like to be on the starboard side of the dock (looking at the dock from sea), but if I go bow first I would prefer to be on the port side. Both of these cases would benefit most from the stern moving to port when thrown into reverse.

I'd prefer to back in for ease of boarding (finger docks only extend about 15') and for ease of connecting to shore power. But I already have concerns about controlling her well enough to get her into the slip.

I will be on the Delaware River (Essington) with tides creating almost equal currents in both directions. Orientation of the docks is such that there will not be side currents - just normal ebb and flood.

So, much like the ubiquitous tiller vs. wheel debate, I am interested in hearing your comments on backing in vs. bow first.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 06:44:12

I had always preferred to back in, especially when single-handed. It gave me control of the boat coming into the finger dock quicker. Boat hook is a necessity. Now I have to pull in nose first because of
wind coming in from different directions. I am able to pull into the main dock and pin the bow against an attached fender and then use the motor to hold my port side against the finger dock. Also do you really have a choice of starboard/port side? I didn't for the first few seasons, it was what was available as dictated by the marina.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 07:54:27

I also prefer to back in.

In regards to what finger slip/location to pick, I also have my boat on a river but the 3 ft tide difference is not so much the factor in picking a slip except perhaps if you have your boat along the long pier/slip that serves as a break from the river. Those that have their boats along that outer edge are effected more by passing boats in the main channel/river but their benefit besides able to get out of the marina perhaps 1 minute sooner is that they have a nice sightseeing spot if they just wanted to lounge on their boat at the slip - They can look out across the river.

The river current/tide effects are not that significant for me in my marina but what plays a bigger role is the wind which 80% or higher comes from the Southwest, west, northwest directions. When I back into my slip, the wind mostly is a help in getting the boat to snug up against the slip. With some others, they have slips where their boats tend to move away from their slips. So...direction of the wind can be a factor in docking ease.

Another factor which probably effects very few where their marinas are located is if there are any trees closer to some of the slips. In my marina, one side has slips close to a brick wall that is parallel to the dock and about 30 slips or so. On the other side of the wall are trees and in the fall they drop their leaves all over those boats closest to the wall.

Anyway, those are some addl factors that may/may not enter into the decison-making when choosing a slip.

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/30/2010 08:01:44

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 09:02:47

I don't get enough prop walk for it to be an advantage or disadvantage in docking my swing keel, variable winds have more impact. If you can't pivot your motor, lines and the doc-o-matic should be your friends. Leave a forward stern spring on the pier or keep it in the cockpit, keep the dock end of an aft bow spring in the cockpit; pick up the dock-o-matic spring as you back in and drop it on the stern cleat (drop it on the dock cleat if you have it in the cockpit and attached the boat), put the motor in neutral and step on the dock to walk the boat aft with the after bow spring. I docked stern to for a while, but I got a 30' slip for a few bucks more and the fingers extend within 2 feet of the transom.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 09:23:46

Congratulations on the new boat! You'll love it. I recommend you join this association and become an active participant.

I prefer to go bow in but my slip is pretty much straight in and straight out from the lake. From your description I think I'd want the bow-in slip. In that situation you are on the other side of the dock from the ocean. I'd like to have something between my boat and the ocean in order to minimize any wave/water action on the boat. Generally, it is also preferable to aim into the prevailing wind when docking.

On the other hand if the slip finger doesn't get all the way back to the gate on the lifelines then going bow-in would sure be a hassle for boarding.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/30/2010 09:26:16

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 10:19:42

Some other things to think about in deciding whether to back into your slip - If you pull in bow-first, will the waves strike your hull so as to create an annoying slapping sound all night, disturbing your sleep?

Also, remember that there are 3 basic ways you can maneuver a boat. You can turn the engine, directing it's thrust, you can use prop walk, or you can use the rudder (when you have enough speed to give steerageway). If the first two don't work for you, you can often use the latter creatively. If your fairway is too narrow to permit the boat to get going fast enough to provide steerageway, there's another alternative. Pull up to the entrance to your fairway, where there's usually more room to maneuver, and begin backing up there. When you have steerageway, back through the fairway until you get to your slip, and then back into your slip. There's no rule that says boats have to go down a fairway bow-first. That's the conventional way we do it, because it's usually easier, but if it's easier in your situation to back through the fairway, it's perfectly acceptable, and I have seen it done many times by good sailors.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/30/2010 10:22:04

Voyager
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 10:24:36

Dear Doc,
Welcome to the forum! I second Randy's encouragement to become a member.

My slip is on the Tee End of an 80 foot dock that I share with a 52 footer, so we get the wakes from passing boats traversing the "Slow - No Wake" zone on the river.

We also get current of between 2 and 4 kts, with a flood tide parallel to the slip and an ebb tide at 135 degrees (or 45 degrees depending on how you look at it) that forces Passage in towards the slip.

I've got four 8" diameter fenders for the boat and several smaller ones mounted horizontally on the slip.

I have one advantage - I have a very easy time getting into and out of the slip, as I can drive straight out and drift in from the river (most of the time) unless there's a strong offshore breeze.

Obvious disadvantages are plenty of rockin' and rollin', especially at night. Mostly everything is nailed down in the boat, so it's not bad.

I've consdered going deep inside the marina on a 25 ft slip, but water levels are less than 4 feet there at times on the 25s, and I'm not willing to pay for a 32 foot slip.

I love my front row seat when lounging though. Here's a shot of my view:

Here is Passage

And my dockmate At Last:

The view and the setting is worth it to me.

Edited by - Voyager on 01/30/2010 10:26:21

Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 10:51:53

You say the tidal currents will be fore-and-aft (if I'm understanding correctly)... What's the prevailing wind direction relative to the slips? There's some advantage to having the stern toward the wind, since it the wind tends to push the bow around more. If the wind will generally be on the beam, I'd probably choose a slip with the finger on the leeward side, whether going bow- or stern-in. I've done both, but I like stern-in for ease of picking up a springline (or "Dock-o-matic") on the way in. Once it has pulled me against the finger, I leave the engine idling in reverse, pulling against the spring-line, and take care of the bow and stern lines on the finger side. But bow-in can be a little easier to control in a cross-wind, especially if you're approaching up-wind before the turn. With 15' fingers, I agree that boarding favors stern-in.

The one caution going stern-in is not to come in too "hot"...

The bow can more of a hit than the outboard can.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/30/2010 10:52:47

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 15:36:15

I forgot to add, but I'm sure you could figure out, drop or pick up the forward stern spring and walk it in with the aft bow spring. Having re-read my prior post, it should have said to walk it in with the forward stern spring for bow in..

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 16:33:41

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. As usual, the decision is more complicated than it seems on the surface. Let me add a few more things that will help you in your advice:

<ul><li>I haven't bought the boat yet. I will join the Assn. (and accept your congratulations) as soon as I have made a successful offer. Until then, there's a possibility I could end up with a C27, 28, or even a 320 if I decide to really splurge, and I would join their assn. instead.</li><li>Turning the outboard looks to be difficult on the C250 due to the tiller bumping up against coamings around the motor well. Based on the tiller placement on the port side of the motor, I think I could use the motor to turn to port (going forward) and/or pull the stern to port if in reverse. Going the other direction would be next to impossible unless I fold up the tiller and attach an EZSteer. I'm guessing here, because the motor is in storage and was not on the boat when I saw it. </li><li>I was assuming that the tide goes directly upriver and downriver. I am not very familiar with these waters, but every time I have visited a marina the water appeared to be flowing directly in or out (if not slack), so I think that is right, but there may be some asymmetry between ebb and flood.</li><li>The Delaware River is oriented east-west at this part, so a prevailing northwesterly would push the boat upriver and slightly away from shore. Click here and zoom to see a layout of the Anchorage Marina superposed on the NOAA chart (at the end of Jansen Ave.):

http://marinas.com/map/index.php?infowindowcategory=marina& infowindowid=462

As you can see, there's pretty good depth there, so no risk of getting stuck in the mud. (Silt deposits become a very big problem in the marinas that are further west - but they're quieter because they're further from the airport, so pick your poison!) You can also see that Little Tinicum Island provides a natural breakwater from the large shipping vessels on the river. Since I don't know these waters well, I do not know how much recreational boat traffic there is north of the island to kick up wakes. But hopefully the finger docks will knock that down some.</li><li>Previously I had neglected to mention another significant challenge to docking at this marina (or any of the others in this area). There are no pilings. You get basically three cleats - two on the main dock and one at the end of the finger dock - which is typically shorter than your boat. I will have to rely heavily on lots of fenders since there is nothing to keep your boat off the finger dock. Do you have any suggestions for docking under this scenario (aside from moving to the Cheasapeake lol)?</li><li>Tidal swings run 6 feet in good weather, up to 8 feet after it rains. Obviously all the docks are floating. I picked Anchorage Marina because it is the only one that I can get to at high tide in my Toyota Prius. The other adjacent Marinas get about a foot of water at their entrances, and I might electrocute myself in my Prius.

Plus, silt deposits become an issue at the others. </li></ul>

Edited by - TakeFive on 01/30/2010 16:37:05

piseas
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Response Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:13:57

RD, I will not mention the plus and minus of each one as others have already done so.
However, you might want to check with the manager of the marina to see if they have a requirement. I found out mine requires bow in, which I now prefer and have pretty much mastered doing alone.
Good luck with your purchase.
Steve A

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 01/31/2010 : 15:11:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 RD, I will not mention the plus and minus of each one as others have already done so.
However, you might want to check with the manager of the marina to see if they have a requirement. I found out mine requires bow in, which I now prefer and have pretty much mastered doing alone.
Good luck with your purchase.
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ah, it had never dawned on me that the marina might require bow in or out. I will check - thanks for the tip.

Lost in my long message was my fundamental question, which I'll repeat here: Does anyone have any suggestions for what lines to run with their limited cleat arrangement? Should I tie up real tight to keep the boat solidly against the fenders? I am assuming this may be better than letting it hit and release repeatedly. I'm sure those of you who must pull up to the side of an end dock know the best way to do something like this. Sorry, I have lots of experience docking a power boat, but I always had cleats on the four corners. This is a new one for me.

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 01/31/2010 : 15:47:24

RD, I have 4 fenders, 2 on port and 2 starboard. I purchased dock lines from WM-15 ft I believe and have 6x20 inch fenders from Dendender.com. I have them somewhat loose vs tied tight to boat-you want a little play. My marina has floating dock so again a lot depends on your circumstance.
My suggestion, take note what other sailboats there in your marina are doing. Good chance if they are similar, there is a good reason. Also get to know your neighbors there. I found lots of good info with both sail and power owners.
Steve A

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 04:55:09

Generally, if you have a floating dock/slip, then you tie up tight. If you have a non-floating dock, then you not only do not tie up tight but you need a spring line from one end of the slip to a cleat 2/3 of the way or at the other end of your boat. That line is what keeps you boat relatively in one place at the dock regardless of tide.

As far as how many docklines ?....You may get different responses on this question. I have a floating dock/slip arrangement. I use 4 lines. My dock lines are on the finger slip - 2 on a cleat at end of slip and 1 on a cleat at beginning of slip adjacent to floating dock. Another line is attached to the main dock diagonally away from my stern port side cleat. My fenders are attached to a cable w/turnbuckle (used to initially tighten the cable when I installed it 2-3 years ago) onto the side of my slip. I have the fenders hanging horizontal to the cable attached to the cable with short lines of about 6" so the fenders hang horizontal along the slip. This way, I do not mess with fenders each time I go out and come back in. They are always in place.

I approach the dock stern first. Others do this differently sometimes using the outboard and a line to bring them closer and snug against the slip but I usually will turn my outboard off just as I am getting close to the moment ready to hop onto the slip - This is only when wind is favorable for me coming from the SW/W/NW direction, otherwise, I leave the outboard on and in neutral. I will attach wither the line up front or near the stern depending on the wind direction - Whichever line will be best to hold me against the dock. Then I attach the second line on the finger slip leaving enough line for wehat I judge is necessary for it's finalresting spot. While I do not really need it, I like using a spring line which I have off the cleat at the end of my finger slip and use it by pulling on it with a turn around my starboard side cleat located near the starboard winch. I pull that line as my boat then moves forward, snug and into final position against the fenders/slip. I then tie up the spring line on that starboard side cleat. Last - I walk the line connected on the main dock onto my boat and attach it to the port side stern cleat - This line is probably not even needed but that's my setup - 4 lines and no fenders to deal with unless I am visiting somewhere. Then I use the extra fenders I have in storage onboard.

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/01/2010 04:59:30

Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 07:43:33

I'm not intimately familiar with the C-250, nor the cleat placement on your docks, but it's possible you could do the following to help hold the boat away from the finger dock a little. You can add a "midship cleat that looks like this...

...to the jib track on your cabin-top, on the side away from the finger. Then, depending on how much angle you have to the main dock cleat on that side (or maybe even a cleat in the next slip for a better angle), you might be able to pull the boat away from the dock enough to keep it off the fenders. The stern cleat probably wouldn't do it, but the midship cleat might. Before investing in the cleat, you could test the theory using the jib-sheet car on the track. (Catalina Direct has two cleats--an expensive one and a cheap one.)

When all is said and done, all lines should be just slack enough to allow the boat to move easily when wakes come through or storm winds are pushing against your rig.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/01/2010 07:46:19

PCP777
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 08:05:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 RD, I will not mention the plus and minus of each one as others have already done so.
However, you might want to check with the manager of the marina to see if they have a requirement. I found out mine requires bow in, which I now prefer and have pretty much mastered doing alone.
Good luck with your purchase.
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ah, it had never dawned on me that the marina might require bow in or out. I will check - thanks for the tip.

Lost in my long message was my fundamental question, which I'll repeat here: Does anyone have any suggestions for what lines to run with their limited cleat arrangement? Should I tie up real tight to keep the boat solidly against the fenders? I am assuming this may be better than letting it hit and release repeatedly. I'm sure those of you who must pull up to the side of an end dock know the best way to do something like this. Sorry, I have lots of experience docking a power boat, but I always had cleats on the four corners. This is a new one for me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I go bow first, and the key to that is what anther member famously says:

"Never approach a dock faster than you're willing to hit it."

These are very very wise words.

The first few times you go in and out it might be high pucker but you'll get used to it. Until you do, invite some friends and break out some boat hooks in case you need to shove away from something. I lock the motor in place and do all steering with my tiller. I find trying to direct the motor and the tiller at the same time to be too complicated. When I back out, I keep the tiller straight and then gradually easy my stern to port as I ghost out. The key is to go slow. As she backs out I put the engine in neutral and once the bow swings to straight out of the marina I put her in forward.

I don't use any fenders, instead I use spring lines on either side to keep the bow from moving forward, two bow lines and two stern lines. I do use fenders when transient docking.

I also use a very short line on the port stern and a longer on the starboard stern so that my boat is actually angled so that the port side is about a foot away from the finger. This makes boarding and loading/unloading stuff very simple. There's no rule that says your boat has to be perfectly straight in.

Remember, I'm on a lake in a very protected marina.

Hope everything works out on your boat purchase.

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 13:08:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 Generally, if you have a floating dock/slip, then you tie up tight.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Larry, you are correct about this. However at my maraina, the rules are to leave a little slack in the dock line as to relieve stress on the dock cleats as there is fore and aft as well as lateral movement. Much of this type of movement or turbulence is caused by other boats.
We do have an extreme change in tide or up and down movement and the floating dock is perfectly suited for this.
As already said, this is a very good topic and am glad to see interest. We should never forget about the basics.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 02/01/2010 13:10:39

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 17:12:41

The big shocker for me was when I was a transient at a fixed dock with the two pilings out front. I had some current and wind to deal with and went in stern first. I have done two different overnighters at this same location and each time have done okay docking but just not use to it. In that case, the lines coming off the stern, we crisscrossed to cleats on the dock to allow for the 3 ft tide difference. But we spent a bit of time on land, going for dinner, etc and then had to climb back onboard. I was just not use to it but the lines were fine....getting onboard and then off again in the morning was a bit of treat.

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 17:27:01

If you look at my pic, you can see I am at the end of the fairway. I am the 2nd to last boat. About 20' behind me is a sea wall. So coming in bow first is easy to me after couple years of practice. When I back out I do a 2 point turn. If I did a stern in, I would still have to do a 2 point turn in. Even thought I have reverse, I feel more control in forward then reverse, especially being close the the sea wall. I have only done a stern in a couple of times when I wanted to service the motor as its easier to remove.
The marina manager sends out monthly newsletters to remind everyone, bow in and loose dock lines. There are some power boats that do back in. I guess they dont read. But everyone does have somewhat loose dock lines.
Steve A

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 21:35:05

I guess every marina has different rules and I am not sure if there is rationale as to why the need for some of these rules such as bow in and loose lines. I can see having loose lines if not on a floating dock.

When I first signed up at my Marina...about 4 1/2 yrs ago, the mgr brought me around and gave me the pro/con of various slips that were avaialable if I wanted to change my slip - The PO had the boat in same slip that I have also kept all these years. In any case, we have floating docks/slips. They have no preference for how you dock your boat whether it be bow or stern in first. Also, the mgr recommended I snug the lines up tight rather than have the boat bang into the dock even if fenders were in place. As it is, the lines tend to loosen up a bit by the next day or so. We also are not allowed to attach anything permanent to the slip - No drilling holes for bolts or screwing things into the side of the slip. I noticed them looking over my cabling that holds my 3 fenders on the slip sidewall but they never complained about it. I guess that is because it is not really permanently attached. The cable ends in a loop at both ends and those loops are around the cleat at each end of the slip. The cable was then tightened with a turnbuckle in the center section and I put a velcro heavy duty sleeve/cable protector over the turnbuckle so that the turnbuckle has no chance of marring my boat finish - and the fenders keep the hull off the slip anyway.

We have about 85-90% motorboats in our approximately 300 slip marina. Not sure if that is one reason why there are no bow/stern rules ?

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/01/2010 21:37:32

piseas
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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 10:41:13

Larry, Ya I try to abide by the rules as well. Additional we are not supposed to share your dinghy in your slip. So the dinghy cant be in the water the same time as your boat. Most, cuz they are larger boats than mine, keep them stored at the stern and some on foredeck.
Mine is 8.5' so a little difficult to do either. I keep it rolled up and stored in my garage.
One grip I do have there is a rule that your boat can't be 10% longer than your slip. Many power boats there are and when I am coming down the fairway to my slip, I have to be especially careful not to hit a bowsprit sticking out well in excess of 10%. Its one reason I am at the helm and dont let anyone else take her in.
Other than that, I love my location as its the ideal slip so many reasons.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 02/02/2010 10:42:17

keeldad
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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 12:44:33

A lot of whether it's bow or stern in depends on the prevailing wind and current, slip and dock configurations and local custom. I'm bow in simply because my boat handles better going forward than reverse. I dock on a lagoon with a bunch of summer houses owned by mostly powerboaters. They seem to come out on their porches whenever I pull in. I guess they secretly want to see the Blowboater screw up. For me, the pointy end is easier to get between the pilings than the flat end. Once I'm between the pilings I'm esentially in. The first time I pulled into a new unfamiliar slip with a new (to me) boat last year, there must have been 30 people standing on their porches, drinks in hand, watching, waiting for something...entertaining to happen. They were disappointed and I was relieved. Now it's not such an event but a few still come out every time to watch me dock. Or maybe it's just because the Emery C is such a pretty boat.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 16:21:55

Okay...off topic but...what is the smallest sailboat you know of that has had a bow thruster installed ?

I'm not planning on installing one on my Cat 25......but just looks like a neat thing to have especially on a larger boat.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
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Response Posted - 02/06/2010 : 07:02:58

Another consideration. Outboards do not have as much thrust in reverse as they do in forward. Practice this in open water and you may avoid running into the pier if you come in bow first and start backing down only to find out it does not stop as well as it goes forward.

NCBrew

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/06/2010 : 08:25:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 Another consideration. Outboards do not have as much thrust in reverse as they do in forward. Practice this in open water and you may avoid running into the pier if you come in bow first and start backing down only to find out it does not stop as well as it goes forward.

NCBrew
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Because outboards don't have as much thrust in reverse as they do in forward, the best practice is to learn to dock without ever having to use the reverse to stop the boat. The way to do that is to put your engine in neutral 50-60 yards before you get to your slip, and let the boat coast, rubbing off it's excess speed. With practice, you'll learn how far away to put it in neutral, so that the boat will coast into the slip, and you can simply step off and tie it up without having to use reverse to stop it.

My friend has a boat that weighs about 8,000 lbs., and it carries a long way with the engine in neutral. He puts it in neutral about 100 yards away from his slip, when he is still heading 180 degrees away from his slip. He makes a 180 degree turn around the end of the dock into the fairway leading to his slip, and then coasts down the fairway past about 12 slips, and enters his slip, and seldom needs to use reverse to stop the boat. Someone steps off and stops it with a gentle pull on the docklines. If you find that the boat isn't going to make it all the way into the slip, just put it in gear and give it a small shot of throttle, and then put it in neutral again, and let it coast in.

Since reverse doesn't work very well, plan your docking so that you don't have to use reverse.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/06/2010 : 13:44:55

The earlier discussion on spring-lines also applies to docking without relying on the engine as a brake. BTW, one reason this can be important is that it's not that unusual to find, when you idle down the engine at the last second on your way in, that it stalls--sometimes due to a tiny obstruction in the idle jet. It can happen at the absolute worst possible moment, as promised by Murphy's Third Corollary. As repeated here many times (also a possible corollary), "Never approach a dock any faster than you're willing to hit it."

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/06/2010 13:51:36

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