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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/08/2010 : 09:05:50

I think I'm going to go ahead and install a shore power outlet in my boat, all I have is solar power and it's not doing the job. Has anyone done this? Any advice?

Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2010 : 15:07:52

Advice? Yes: understand three wire Alternating Current. Completely. Before you start. Seriously, there's all that "it'll kill ya" stuff out there, but make sure you understand the different purposes of the three wires, how they connect to the shorepower cord and prongs, and what size service you want or need. Most dock boxes are 30A, so if you're going anywhere, that's good to have. But your boat probably only needs 20A, so you have the choice: 30A cordset or 20A cord and adapter at the shore end.

There have been some good photos of where the factory put the shorepower inlet on this forum. Just forward of the winch on the outside of the coaming, I seem to recall. Figure out what's behind it and where you are going to run the wires.

Then there's the AC panel you'll need down below. Incoming AC main breaker and AC circuits for whatever you're planning: charger, lights, receptacles, etc.

Not knowing your background and capabilities makes it hard to answer any further.

When we first got our C34 in 1998, after having our C25 for 12 years, I had NO CLUE about AC. I learned, because I put in a combined inverter charger first thing, within the first month.

Find a good book or two, and study up. And you thought high school was over!

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/08/2010 15:08:49

jerlim
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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2010 : 19:31:29

FWIW...my $.02....always remember, ELECTRICITY IS NOT YOUR FRIEND...

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Tom Gauntt
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Response Posted - 02/08/2010 : 20:05:33

Peter,

I did this very project last year, primarily to make it easier to hook up my battery charger, but also for all the convenience that AC offers.

It was a relatively easy project, and only took a few hours. In the spirit of full disclosure, I have a well-equipped tool box and was an apprentice electrician for a few years, many years ago.

Alternating Current around water poses some serious hazards. You CAN dispatch yourself or someone else from this realm with great ease if you do not follow standard practices. My humble recommendations are to do due diligence, buy marine rated outlets and panels, use only BC (boat cable), and use crimp-on connectors.

I put the shore power outlet in the cockpit just forward of the manual bilge pump. This location makes it very easy to install the outlet, but it is in the way while at the dock. I toyed with the idea of installing the outlet on an outboard coaming (by the jib sheet winch), but felt that might be more inconvenient depending on where the shore power was coming from (across the cockpit, e.g.). In retrospect, the better place is on the outboard coaming... Old Frank Butler knows a thing or two!

I used a standard 30A outlet that goes to a 30A marine breaker (with reverse polarity light). From there it goes directly to a 20A GFCI receptacle. I can't recommend strongly enough the importance of GFCI receptacles.

It was a straightforward project and relatively speaking inexpensive to accomplish.

Let me know if you have specific questions.

Edited by - on

skrenz
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351 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2010 : 13:44:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tom Gauntt

I used a standard 30A outlet that goes to a 30A marine breaker (with reverse polarity light). From there it goes directly to a 20A GFCI receptacle. I can't recommend strongly enough the importance of GFCI receptacles.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sooo, just what wire size did you use between your 30A marine breaker and your 20A outlet???? It seems to be that lots and lots of people set things up just this way and the available breaker boxes for this seem to support this. But this arrangement makes absolutely no sense at all from an electrical protection perspective.

What is the purpose of the "breaker" in a system. It is to protect the WIRE between the box and the outlet device. But the size of the breaker needs to match the size of the wire and the device that is attached to the wire. This is just basic wiring 101. So if you have a device rated at 20 Amps and you are protecting this with a 30 Amp breaker, you are providing no protection at all. Same if you are wiring between the breaker and the outlet with wire that is rated at 20 Amps. Why? because the device and the wire are going to fail long before the breaker will trip.

IMHO these 30 Amp breakers are little more than a master switch to turn off the system. To protect the system correctly, you should have a 20 Amp breaker for the circuit to your 20 Amp outlets. Do you need a 30 Amp "Main" breaker at all? I don't think so.

If you have 30 Amps coming from the shore connection you have a wire running between the shore pedestal and the breaker box on the boat that is rated for 30 Amps. There is a breaker on the shore pedestal rated at 30 Amps to protect this wire.
Once in the boat breaker box, the power is distributed to the several circuits needed, usually rated at 20 or 15 amps each. Each of these needs a breaker sized to protect the wire on that circuit. So other than for the "convenience" of being able to turn off all of the circuits at a single point, what is this 30 Amp breaker doing for you? Having a box with breakers sized correctly to the individual circuit size is way way better than having a breaker over-sized to the wire it is supposed to protect. So a three position breaker panel for three circuits without a main breaker will provide far better protection than a single main breaker panel.

Alternatively you could use wire rated for 30 Amps and a 30 Amp outlet device. Good luck with that because the plug configuration for a 30 Amp outlet device is entirely different from your normal 15 or 20 Amp house outlet configuration.

I totally agree with the need for GFCI protection.

I believe the correct way to set this up is:
30 Amp shore cord
30 Amp marine recepticle mounted on the boat
#10 wire between this recepticle and the breaker box
A breaker box with or without a main breaker but definitely with breaker(s) rated for the individual circuits.
#12 wire for a 20 Amp circuit and #15 wire for a 15 Amp circuit between the breaker and the devices.
First device on the circuit a GFCI outlet. This will protect that outlet and all downstream outlets.
Your connection between the breaker box and your battery charger will probably be wired direct from the breaker. Your battery charger specs may dictate the size of circuit to build to this device.

Don't use solid house wire, use stranded wire. Most people will say that you should use tinned stranded marine wire. You should definitely use marine grade connectors for any connections you need to make but there should be very few (all connections will be made either at the breaker box or the individual devices). Follow the correct color coding: Red is power, Black is ground, Green is grounding. (As opposed to house wire which is black, white and green) Its probably easier to run this wiring if it is co-sheathed as a single cable.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2010 : 15:03:15

Thank you guys.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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1913 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2010 : 16:43:35

Some good reading before you start your project.
[url="http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/36.htm"]Don Casey on Shore Power[/url]

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
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204 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2010 : 21:08:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sooo, just what wire size did you use between your 30A marine breaker and your 20A outlet???? It seems to be that lots and lots of people set things up just this way and the available breaker boxes for this seem to support this. But this arrangement makes absolutely no sense at all from an electrical protection perspective.

What is the purpose of the "breaker" in a system. It is to protect the WIRE between the box and the outlet device. But the size of the breaker needs to match the size of the wire and the device that is attached to the wire. This is just basic wiring 101. So if you have a device rated at 20 Amps and you are protecting this with a 30 Amp breaker, you are providing no protection at all. Same if you are wiring between the breaker and the outlet with wire that is rated at 20 Amps. Why? because the device and the wire are going to fail long before the breaker will trip.

IMHO these 30 Amp breakers are little more than a master switch to turn off the system. To protect the system correctly, you should have a 20 Amp breaker for the circuit to your 20 Amp outlets. Do you need a 30 Amp "Main" breaker at all? I don't think so.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,

You make several good points and I agree with many of them. I'll concentrate on where we differ.

Most shore power pedestals are rated at 30 amps (or 50A) so I made it easy to stay with common connectors, cables, devices, etc. Do you need more than 30 amps on a C-25? Someone might, but I do not.

The main reason for the 30 amp "main breaker" is partly as you mention; to have a single source readily available to disconnect AC power. The other reason (and primary) I installed this breaker is to provide for detection of "reverse polarity". I know it's rare in the US, but it provides another layer of protection for a potentially deadly situation.

I did use 10AWG Boat Cable (BC) from the shore power cord connector to the breaker, not because I'll ever need 30 amps, but becuase it is required by ABYC regs. From the main breaker, I go directly to my only circuit, a 20A GFCI protected branch with three receptacles: one by the galley, one under the aft berth (for the battery charger) and one beside the ladder forward of the aft quarter berth. I am fastidious about proper connections (only marine grade compression connectors) and use only UL listed marine grade Boat Cable.

Additionally, you are incorrect about the color coding for Alternating Current wiring and you should seriously consider editing your post. For AC single phase (120v) the black is the "hot" leg the white is the "neutral" or "return" leg and the green is the "ground". Here is a picture of the cable I use for AC power:

Edited by - Tom Gauntt on 02/17/2010 21:17:52

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2010 : 09:32:41

Two points. First, in the description of your system you said: " From the main breaker, I go directly to my only circuit, a 20A GFCI protected branch with three receptacles..." This is the leg that I am talking about. You have a 30 Amp breaker trying to protect a 20 Amp circuit. This is not a good idea. The outlets that you have installed are rated at 20 Amps. I don't know what size wire you used between your 30 Amp breaker and your 20 Amp device but if it isn't 10 gauge, it isn't protected by the 30 Amp breaker. This is the main point I was trying to make. To protect 20 Amp wire and 20 Amp devices, you need a 20 Amp breaker, not a 30 Amp one. You are presently not protecting this circuit. It can blow up long before the 30 Amp breaker breaks. The use of the reverse polarity sensor in the system is a good thing to have. I'm not against having a 30 Amp disconnect with the polarity sensor, just don't use only one breaker to protect a down stream circuit of 20 Amps. As I said in my original post one option is a panel with the 30 Amp disconnect, and associated reverse polarity sensor, and several smaller disconnects for the individual circuits.

As to the color coding I said: "Follow the correct color coding: Red is power, Black is ground, Green is grounding. (As opposed to house wire which is black, white and green)" You are correct in terming them "hot" and "neutral". But I am also correct in terming them "Power" and "Ground" There is a difference between "Ground" and "Grounding" but essentially "ground" and "neutral" in an AC system are the same thing. Another way of saying this is that the neutral wire goes to ground in an AC system.

I stand corrected on the wire colors. (It is confusing) It is recommended that DC be Red for positive and preferably Yellow for negative. It used to be Black for DC negative but because AC is Black for power and White for ground, the AC power could get confused with the old DC ground which would be a very bad thing :-). I apologize for the saying the wrong thing in the initial post and confusing anyone. To repeat: AC: Black = power, White = ground or neutral, Green = grounding. Which by the way is just like house wire. DC: Red = Positive and preferably Yellow = Negative.

As to the question about whether 30 Amps is enough. Yes, it should be more than adequate. 30 Amps is a lot of power.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 11:31:45

What will you run with it? If just common 110 stuff then just use a Marinco 200BBI socket and you can get by with a heavy extension cord.

You can wire the boat with heavy extension cord wire just throw a ground fault outlet first in the line.
If Air Conditioning then go with the full 30 setup, with breakers and everything.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 13:01:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 What will you run with it? If just common 110 stuff then just use a Marinco 200BBI socket and you can get by with a heavy extension cord.

You can wire the boat with heavy extension cord wire just throw a ground fault outlet first in the line.
If Air Conditioning then go with the full 30 setup, with breakers and everything.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You see that looks like what the other boats around here have. We really don't run much most of the time. Just a west marine heater, radio, interior lights, a lap top or DVD player. In the summer we use a window unit AC in the forward hatch.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 14:06:39

Frank's idea intrigues me. It sure seems to be a simple solution for my needs. But, it's rated at 20 amps. What does that mean to this electrically impaired installer? Is it really safe? Aren't you potentially forcing 30 amps through a 20 amp hole without any kind of circuit protection? BTW, I couldn't find it at WM or Defender, I wonder if that means anything?

Edited by - John Russell on 02/23/2010 14:09:40

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 15:01:22

John,
Just to simplify, try thinking about it like this. You are not pushing 30 amps. The load you have in the boat is pulling whatever amerage it needs. As long as the combined amp needs of your electronics does not exceed 20 amps you will be fine. 20 amps is a lot. Probably need an air-conditioner, microwave or heater to get near that amount.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 16:58:37

Thanks, Joe. That's kinda what I thought but Steve's comments seem to contradict that in my addled brain. As I understand him, the circuit breaker protects things down stream from it and I understand that. What confuses me is why should I worry if I don't hook up anything that will demand that many amps? I usually have a fan or two and occasionally a DVD player or computer. Won't the surge prtector in my power strip protect from power surges? I am concerned that I don't have GFCI though.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 17:19:53

I re-read Steve's post. If you have a 30 amp breaker at the shore box and a 20 amp breaker at the entry point to the boat the boat is protected to 20 amps but not 30 amps. Hence the wiring would only need to be able to handle 20 amps. The power cord to the boat is protected to 30 amps. If you were to get a short in the power cord it would blow the circuit once it reaches 30 amps. If you get a short on the boat it will blow the 20 amp breaker once it reaches 20 amps. That's how I see it. A GFCI breaker is optimal at both locations. You may already have a 30 amp one in the dock power box.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 12:31:51

IMPORTANT

Steve wrote: As to the color coding I said: "Follow the correct color coding: Red is power, Black is ground, Green is grounding. (As opposed to house wire which is black, white and green)" You are correct in terming them "hot" and "neutral". But I am also correct in terming them "Power" and "Ground" There is a difference between "Ground" and "Grounding" but essentially "ground" and "neutral" in an AC system are the same thing. Another way of saying this is that the neutral wire goes to ground in an AC system.

AC neutral and ground are only connected on the land side. So, please don't confuse things by calling the white neutral a ground or grounding, because it simply is not on a boat. The WHITE neutral and GREEN ground AC wires should NEVER be connected on a boat. BLACK is hot.

Tom G is correct about AC wiring colors.

Your clarification of the DC wire coloring was helpful.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/24/2010 13:43:25

skrenz
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 13:53:18

Stu,
I don't think I ever said that you would interconnect the AC system with the DC system on the boat. You obviously have to have the white and green wires running onto the boat from the shore power source to form the circuit for the AC system. Those two wires are referred to as ground or neutral and groundING respectively. That doesn't mean that they are in any way connected to the DC circuitry.
If you mean that your only connect the AC ground or neutral (white wire) to the groundING (green wire) on the land that is correct. We are not discussing that here. I don't think I implied otherwise either. And I specifically stated that there is a big difference between "ground" and "groundING" in electrical terms.
If you want to call the AC white wire neither neutral nor ground, what would you call it?

Edited by - on

NCBrew
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Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 14:30:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 IMPORTANT

AC neutral and ground are only connected on the land side. So, please don't confuse things by calling the white neutral a ground or grounding, because it simply is not on a boat. The WHITE neutral and GREEN ground AC wires should NEVER be connected on a boat. BLACK is hot.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think I had it all figured out but now I am confused?

You say the WHITE neutral and GREEN ground should never be connected on a boat. Don't you connect the black to the Hot side (gold) and the white to the neutral side (silver) and the green to the ground lug of the receptacle on the boat? .

(Unless you meant don't connect them together)

NCBrew

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 16:14:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

I think I had it all figured out but now I am confused?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ditto

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 16:24:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 You say the WHITE neutral and GREEN ground should never be connected on a boat... (Unless you meant don't connect them together)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Indeed they shouldn't. If they were, the GFI (assuming there is one) would always kick off.

I wonder if there's some confusion here about color codes for AC vs. DC, and the meaning of "ground" in each system. The colors and definitions are very different. There are books that sort these things out (like Casey's Sailboat Electrics Simplified). However, IMVHO, amateur 12V installations on boats are dicey enough... A 110V system and its interconnections to the DC system (charger and inverter) for a boat should be designed and installed by a pro. My surveyor told me how my shore-power system was dated (no GFI), but that it met what were in 1985 professional standards and workmanship (unlike many he'd seen). If he had reported otherwise, I would have disconnected the system and not advertised the boat as having shore power unless I had a marine electrician review and re-work it.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 17:16:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skrenz
 

1.
... You obviously have to have the white and green wires running onto the boat from the shore power source to form the circuit for the AC system. Those two wires are referred to as ground or neutral and groundING respectively. That doesn't mean that they are in any way connected to the DC circuitry.
If you mean that your only connect the AC ground or neutral (white wire) to the groundING (green wire) on the land that is correct. We are not discussing that here. ...And I specifically stated that there is a big difference between "ground" and "groundING" in electrical terms.

2.
If you want to call the AC white wire neither neutral nor ground, what would you call it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

1. Seems we agree.

2. It's the neutral. Only that on board a boat. It's a grounded neutral on shore.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew

I think I had it all figured out but now I am confused?

You say the WHITE neutral and GREEN ground should never be connected on a boat. Don't you connect the black to the Hot side (gold) and the white to the neutral side (silver) and the green to the ground lug of the receptacle on the boat? .

(Unless you meant don't connect them together)

NCBrew
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's it, you never connect them together ON A BOAT. You're right, they have to be connected to the APPLIANCE or RECEPTACLE that they serve, to separate points of connection. Each receptacle has three points of connection: black HOT white NEUTRAL, green GROUND.

While technically correct, using the terms grounded and grounding are unnecessarily complicating for people entering AC discussions. They're three wires on a boat that one needs to aware of.

When we got Aquavite in 1998, I didn't "Do" electrical on a boat. But I purchased and installed a Freedom 15 combined inverter charger tied into the boat shorepower. I read everythign I could get my hands on, complicated by a lots of "too much information", bought Calder's Boatowners Manual for Mechanical and Electrical Systems, purchased the proper tools and materials, and spent a few pleasant days installing it to codes and standards. Either you "get it" and can work with it successfully, or you can't and hire an electrician. Remember: the electrician, at one time, knew as little as you did!

You can do it. All I'm suggesting is that you simply learn what the three wires do on your boat. What happens on shore is important, too, to understand, but they do not affect what you MUST do on your boat.

Please, as suggested earlier by others, a good book goes a long way.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/24/2010 17:25:29

NCBrew
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 17:28:11

Maybe someone needs to draw a schematic showing breakers, receptacles and color coded wire from pier to boat and to 3 receptacles

????

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 19:09:03

If that's what you need, please buy a book. Ooops, previously suggested.

Or, try this: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/shore-power.htm

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 02/24/2010 19:09:48

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2010 : 19:27:26

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup! There's nothing Catalina-specific about this. Other than (most of us) not having an inboard engine, what the books lay out for you applies to any boat.

Edited by - on

fpill
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Response Posted - 03/17/2010 : 18:10:32

Frank,

<h6>quote:
<hr noshade size="1">
...and you can get by with a heavy extension cord. You can wire the boat with heavy extension cord wire just throw a ground fault outlet first in the line.</h6>
<hr noshade size="1">

Are you suggesting that you clip the plugs off the extension cord and hard wire it? Do you mean that you can plug an extension cord in to the Marinco 200BBI socket inside the boat and run a GFCI power strip off of it?

http://www.marinco.com/product/20-amp-125-volt-power-inlet-black
Frank

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2010 : 19:39:04

My friend's Hunter 25.5 was wired with chopped 10 gauge extension cord wire and regular outlets with a GF at the first spot. It works fine and no one is going to die. The cord is color coded and easy to work with. You could probably buy bulk, this is what we used.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5/R-100661447/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

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