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sailing injury

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/21/2010 : 10:46:53

I was sailing yesterday on a Santana 35 in a very windy and huge rough coastal race. This was a windward/leeward course with several laps. There were 3 races scheduled. Winds were about 25 and seas at times must have been up to 10. It was raining.

Great boat, and very fast upwind. We kept getting killed downwind. This is a fractional rig with running backstays and a fractional spinnaker.

The boom is very low.

During a gybe I got hit in the head. A very hard hit, the kind that makes you see stars, get a huge lump, and blood everywhere.

My foot was wedged in the compainway, I was doing pit. When I went down, I twisted my knee.

We finished the race, and I did my duty hiking out and working the lines. The bump on the head was nothing. I put my hat on tight and continued. It really only bled a minute.

My knee got stiffer and more painful. Any kind of twisting motion was impossible. At the end of the day I helped put away and fold the sails but could barely get off the boat.

Got my foulies off and I was very wet inside. I've got the cheap West marine 3rd Reef foulies and they don't breath. I was wearing jeans underneath which I already know is a bad idea - it works better with my fleece underneath. I drove to my boat and had to drag my bad knee up and over the gunwhale to get aboard.

I got out of the wet clothes and took some ibprofin. I started shaking with cold. Litterally shaking, not shivering. I laid down on the bed and wrapped up in 2 blankets.

About 9:30 PM I woke up warm and feeling much better. I got dressed with some effort and was able (barely) to get off the boat and drive home. My wife was really mad because I called her after the race and told her what happened but I didn't take the phone down to my boat and she was worried while I was sleeping.

Today I am happy to say that the bump on my head is down and the knee is really stiff and sore but not throbbing with pain. I can still barely walk and it is much worse after sitting or laying around for awhile.

Hopefully I'll heal up in time for my race next weekend then I have a race to Mexico and back and the 130 mile Island race on a sportboat.

Oh yeah, we took 6th. It was the crew that is going to be on for the Islands Race and we've never sailed together. After the first race - in really tough conditions - the 2nd race the winds dropped to 5 and we barely finished. The seas dropped off nicely.

That boat needs a masthead spin.

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 11:57:05

Jim, Having had a few knee injuries including 2 surgery's it's probably best to man-up and go get an x-ray.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 11:59:52

What Bear said. As I tell male friends: "Don't be a guy." Go to the doctor, take the medicine, do what the MD tells you.

Edited by - Even Chance on 02/21/2010 12:00:13

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 12:49:38

...I'm third on this...go to the Doc, get some PT...it will make all the difference in how the injury heals...and God bless your head in jury was not severe!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 14:02:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Originally posted by jerlim
 ...I'm third on this...go to the Doc, get some PT...it will make all the difference in how the injury heals<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Amen!<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...and God bless your head in jury was not severe!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Your wife was right to be concerned. The first 12-24 hours after a head injury one should have somebody else around in the event that it was more serious than first thought. A slow bleed in the brain might not be symptomatic for hours after the injury.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 15:08:29

I definitely agree on the head injury caution, but I don't think giving a knee a couple of days is a bad idea. Strains and stretches get better in a few days, more serious injuries won't, but they also won't get worse.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 16:33:41

Jim,
I'd be more concerned about your head injury than your knee. As stated above the hours after a head trauma are the most critical, and sleeping can be the absolute worst thing should you be concussed. I'd have your head looked at, and then your knee.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 17:09:36

Jim, I agree with the others if you are a sailor you should get your head examined.... regularly

Edited by - on

redviking
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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 18:11:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 Jim, I agree with the others if you are a sailor you should get your head examined.... regularly
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tell the Doc you were skateboarding.

sten

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3462 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 21:49:41

With a knee injury, it is best to go to the doctor and get his recommendation if you should see an orthopaedic surgeon. It's not that you necessarily need surgery but an orthopaedic surgeon is more experienced with knee injuries than a general practitioner. Also, depending on the health care you have, many insurance companies will cover emergency doctor visits 100% if done within 72 hrs of the injury. One real good reason for going to the doctor to evaluate is that with knee injuries, some issues do seem better in a few days but that does not necessarily mean that everything is okay. For example, an ACL partial tear will almost always feel better after a day or two, maybe even 10 minutes after the injury. However, in the case of an ACL injury, the muscles start to atrophy. The danger for some that are active in sports is that if there muscles begin to atrophy from a partial ACL tear, then the first line of stability/protection from the muscles will not be there when needed and then the ACL is a sitting duck for a repeat injury. In the case of cartilage tears, minor ones (and only a small percentage turn out to be minor) can probably be left alone but many cartilage tears stick out somewhat and irritate the normally frictionless joint internals. Given time, then irritation becomes apparent from increased wear, etc.

Hopefully, you have a minor thing with your knee. I have had past experiences with basketball knee injuries. I first had a partial ACL tear and a cartilage tear. After arthroscopy and therapy and then 8 yrs wearing a custom sports brace, then I completely severed my ACL, went for an ACL reconstruction (and cartilage tear trim). My knee has been great ever since the reconstruction which is now 11+ yrs ago.

You may have just sprained your knee but best to check it out and from an orthopaedic surgeon. He does not meet you with a scalpel at the front door...but he is the most experienced for knee assessments.

If your knee starts to quiver a bit from all this talk and you are considering what to do....Take a look at my Knee Website -

http://www.olarryrknees.homestead.com/acl.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/21/2010 21:50:41

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 22:22:50

I am feeling much better today after a day taking it easy. I can almost walk with a normal motion. It is mostly stiff and sore and doesn't want to twist at all. I'll keep you posted but I think I'll be fine in a couple of days. Still have a bit of a bump on the head.

Interesting is that this was my good leg. My right knee got hurt real bad in college and has never been the same. Probably some day I'll be looking at knee replacement on the right.

Not having much of a left leg right now made me realize I've been compensating and doing most lifting with the left for the past 30 years.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 23:23:20

Jim, you have gotten a lot of good suggestions and I looked at Larry's knees. I'm the one that got good suggestions from the Forum too. My right knee has been replaced after all the injuries and repair surgery and I still sail and walk without a limp. Following all the suggestions and rehab things are good but maybe could have prevented the replacement with more attention to early care and exercise. The head injury care should come first and be watched by someone else the first 24. We need you sailing and writing.
Take care and keep us posted.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2010 : 09:25:04

Hi Jim,

It's good you posted your bumps and bruises.

My son banged his head when the pickup he was riding in got partially crushed in a landslide on the Big Island where he lives. A week or so later he had symptoms of a subdural hematoma (constant headache), and he got outpatient surgical treatment that probably saved his life.

Here is a [url="http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/intracranial-hematoma/DS00330/DSECTION%3Dcauses"]link[/url] and some info on the serious condition called "subdural hematoma" or "intracranial hematoma" from the Mayo Clinic website. It's critical that you recognize that if any of these symptoms arise you should immediately get medical attention:

Signs and symptoms of an intracranial hematoma may occur from immediately to several weeks or longer after a blow to your head. It's even possible to seem perfectly fine after a head injury. This is called the lucid interval. As time progresses, pressure on your brain increases, producing some or all of the following signs and symptoms:

Increasing headache
Vomiting
Drowsiness and progressive loss of conciousness
Dizziness
Confusion
Pupils of unequal size
Weakness in limbs on one side of your body
Increased blood pressure
As more and more blood fills your brain or the narrow space between your brain and skull, other signs and symptoms may become apparent, such as:

Lethargy
Seizures
Unconsciousness
When to see a doctor
An intracranial hematoma can be life-threatening. Emergency medical treatment often is necessary.

Seek immediate medical attention after any significant blow to the head in which:

You lose consciousness
You experience any of the signs and symptoms that may indicate an intracranial hematoma
Although symptoms of intracranial hematoma may not be immediately apparent, watch closely for subsequent physical, mental and emotional changes. For example, if someone seemed fine after a blow to the head and was talking to you, but then lapses into unconsciousness, seek immediate medical care.

In addition, tell a family member or a close friend if you've experienced any type of head trauma. Because memory loss often is associated with head trauma, you may forget that you even suffered a blow to the head. An alerted friend, family member or work colleague may be more likely to recognize the warning signs and arrange for prompt medical attention if aware of your history. 

All they have to do is drill a hole in your skull and remove the accumulated blood to relieve the pressure! It's relatively safe for you and simple for a surgeon with relevant experience.

Tell your wife and daughter, since it's now their job to be aware of these signs and symptoms and take care of you.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2010 : 10:07:34

John , excellent advice, thanks for posting this.

Jim, don't treat your bump on the noggin lightly.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2010 : 18:30:55

How many times have you heard some powerboater/water skier say sailing's too boring? You just laugh and say yeah, sometimes. Great post Jim. It shows how a very experienced sailor/racer can get his bell rung once an awhile... I have. I'm nervous to the point of distraction when I take an inexperienced crew out in a blow. Big wind, small boat, racing... better be in reasonable shape and have plenty of situational awareness!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2010 : 19:09:15

Feeling even better today after a full day on the job. It has been a super busy day meeting with lawyers on a lawsuit against us, meeting with architects on our new computer room, and meeting with my team who completed a Microsoft review of our new Sharepoint site.

My mental state seems normal. My knee is stiff, mostly without pain. I can almost walk normally and I can get in and out of the car, etc.

Right now I think I will be a "go" for racing this weekend.

This never would have happened in my boat!

(1) I would not have been racing in those conditions
(2) If I was, I would not have hit my head during a gybe
(3) If I did, it wouldn't have hurt so much!
(4) I doubt I would have fallen and twisted my knee. Most jobs on my boat are done sitting. Most don't take that much brute strength. Just getting the pole up or foreguy on took all the strength I had - he had no winches or mechanical advantage on these and puny jamb cleats (mine are larger). So I was standing up with my feet jambed in the cockpit well pulling the various pit lines during a spinnaker gybe in big waves, strong winds, and rough, wet conditions. I was also trimming guy (the spinsheet to the pole) and I had to turn around to a winch behind me for that.

It was a new boat to me and I don't know every foot and handhold without thinking like I do on my boat.

By the way, there was no drinking going on - we all had a beer after the race. I did call my wife before I went down to my boat and she was very very worried when I dropped out of site for 4 hours. I didn't mention to her that the bump happened 4 or 5 hours before and that we raced the whole second race after.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 04:48:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I didn't mention to her that the bump happened 4 or 5 hours before and that we raced the whole second race after.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The owner showed pretty poor judgement then. Shoulda skipped the second race and taken you somewhere.

sten

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 05:05:10

One thing you can do to check if you have a concussion, is to go to a darkened area. After your eyes have adjusted to the light- you can have some one shine a flash light on your eye to see if the pupils constrict. If they do not constrict you have a concussion. We do this frequently with our kids after bike, skateboard, and spinning-around-until-dizzy wipe-outs. And I know that we have been successful because all my kids have learned to read before age 12!

People with real MDs (beyond late eighties life guard training) might want to chime in here.

Vern

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 08:30:57

Normal pupillary response does not mean that no injury has occurred. While it's true that lack of pupillary response might be a sign of brain injury (certain recreational chemicals come to mind

). It's just one sign that could indicate a brain injury, their are others.

Concussions occur when the brain, which is floating in liquid inside your skull, gets bounced off the inside of the skull. I.e., when Jim's skull got whacked with the boom causing it to move faster than the floating brain could accomodate. "Seeing stars" is a pretty good indicator that Jim's brain came in sudden contact with his skull resulting in some amount of injury. Now, the extent of that injury and the later effects could be as minimal a simple headache. They could also be the catastrophic kind, for example, subdural hematomae and their consequences. That's why observation is important.

No, I don't have a real (or any other kind) of M.D. I do have 20+ years as a military medic. Oh, yeah, I had life guard training too --in the 60's

.

One other rhing, IMO, the captain of that boat failed in his responsibilty to insure the safety of his crew by allowing Jim to continue to race in the next race.

Edited by - John Russell on 02/23/2010 08:34:55

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 08:53:07

Captain asked me if I wanted to quit and go in. Everyone took a look at my head. I said no, lets finish race 1 and see. After race 1 I was feeling fine. I said lets do race 2. It wasn't until we were sailing back in many hours later, sitting around, that I realized my knee was getting much worse.

It really was my decision to go on and Captain would have quit right then and there if we felt there was any problem.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 12:58:43

Anytime there is blood from a head injury, time to go ashore. My offshore med kit rivals the emergency rooms of many a third world country, needless to say, I am trained in how to use it. On my boat - even if port was 5 days away in the wrong direction, we would have put you down below under blankets and kept a watch on you until we reached port. The guy with the head injury SHOULD NOT be sitting on the rail. He/She who protests too much really does have a head injury.

As Jim noted, the most dangerous boat to be on is one that isn't yours. The only times I have fallen overboard have been while on other peoples boats. The only time I got clocked was on another persons boat.

Not everyone reading this is as seaworthy nor as brave as Jim. Should this happen to you or a member of your crew, PLEASE notify the Coast Guard (just so they know should the situation elevate) and proceed to the nearest dock and then a hospital. Booms can kill.

I will backwind before I tack if I can't get to the boom brake fast enough. Safety first. Booms can kill.

AND, no beer after head banging. Really bad idea.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 02/23/2010 13:10:48

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 13:26:18

I agree with Sten. It really wasn't your call, Jim. Should bad have turned to worse or worst (I'm glad it didn't but IF) I can imagine the lawyers for your wife asking the captain at the trial: "Tell me why, Captain(said loudly for emphasis), did you choose to continue your race (or sport, or game, or afternoon's recreation --whichever one would have the most impact on the jury) when you knew one of your crew, for whom you were responsible, just had a significant blow to the head?" Then: "Oh, I see, Captain he told you he was OK after seeing stars and with blood gushing from his head?" Then, isn't it true, Captain, that the Captain is responsible for the safety of his crew and cannot abdicate or delegate this responsibility crewmembers? I'm pretty sure his insurance company would work hard to get a settlement agreement before the jury made up their minds.

My point here, Jim, isn't to be critical of you but rather to help others appreciate their responsibilities as Captain. In this case, it was his decision to make, not yours. Sorry.

Edited by - John Russell on 02/23/2010 13:26:48

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 15:39:19

1: Glad you are ok Jim.
2: I vote with Sten and John... Remember [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/16/natasha-richardson-ski-ac_n_175573.html"]Natasha Richardson[/url]
3: Glad you are ok Jim!
I'll post my incident on a seperate thread.

Paul

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 18:14:16

Feeling good today. I think I could go out and shoot some baskets tonight, at least put up free throws. My knee is much better.

San Diego All Catalina race this weekend on Indiscipline

Cabrillo 3 - 70 mile race to Mexico and back next on Cat 36.

Islands race 129 miles Long Beach - San Diego going 65 miles offshore on Columbia 30.

Cabrillo 4 local windward/leeward ocean race on Cat 36.

couple weeks off

Newport - Ensenada, maybe riding down on a Cat 42.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 18:18:44

Wow! You're really having a blast!

Do you like how the Cat 36 sails? Would you like to move up to one? Is it possible to single-hand reasonably easily on a Cat 36?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2010 : 19:10:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 Wow! You're really having a blast!

Is it possible to single-hand reasonably easily on a Cat 36?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I can answer that one. If you ever think about moving up to a bigger boat, don't hesitate to do so out of fear that you won't be able to handle a bigger boat singlehandedly. Although there were a few things I had to learn when I moved up to my C&C 35, I really don't think it's any more difficult to singlehand it than my Catalina 25. In fact, it's probably easier in many ways, because, when I have to work the foredeck, the foredeck is bigger, and a 35', 11,000 lb. boat doesn't buck and roll as much as a 25' boat. It's a much more stable platform to work on. Moving up is intimidating at first, but you'll soon realize that a 40' boat generally behaves about the same as a 25 boat. A couple years ago, I helped a guy sail his 44' sailboat, and it was no more difficult than sailing my 35. Probably the most difficult part is tacking the boat singlehandedly in fresh winds. Steering the boat and grinding and trimming a big, masthead genoa takes some practice. It's easier if you roll up a little of the jib, so you aren't fighting such strong pressures and you don't have so much jibsheet to reel in.

Edited by - on

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