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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Reefing downwind

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windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/07/2010 : 14:30:17

Enough is enough. I've only been sailing for a few years, so I'm very influenced by what I've been shown, taught in courses and read. Everyone says you set the reef upwind. On the boats I crew on, we reef upwind. In my ASA courses - upwind. I've been sailing Windsong two years and for me, without question, it's easier to set the reef downwind, especially the second reef, when I've got a lot of wind and chop. I'm ready to give up on reefing upwind altogether and always reef downwind on my own boat. What's the deal on this? Why is my own experience so different from what I've been taught? Am I missing something?

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC

Edited by - windsong on 06/07/2010 14:31:54

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 15:21:48

IMHO, you reef going upwind because you have the ability to luff the main, which should make it easier to lower the sail. Also, are you single-handing? You must be bringing the main in over the boat while going downwind, otherwise there would be too much pressure on the sail and you could rip it on the spreaders.

If I think the wind is going to pipe up while I'm out, and especially if the admiral is sailing with me or nubies, I will reef the main before leaving the dock and start out with the working jib instead of the genoa. It's a lot easier to shake out a reef than to put one in while sailing. Also, I've got the tall rig and only 1 set of reef points so when I reef I still have about the same sail area as a standard main.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 17:20:56

Up-wind definitely! Don't know why you'd want to reef going down wind,unless the wind was so strong that you were in danger of broaching, and then I think I would drop the main entirely.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 03:22:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 Don't know why you'd want to reef going down wind<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Apparent wind is less, I'm not beating into the chop and there's no risk of accidentally tacking while feathering the helm. I set the autopilot deep downwind, center the main to relieve pressure and reef it.

Edited by - windsong on 06/08/2010 03:25:59

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 04:54:08

I think you're able to reef downwind because you're doing it intelligently, and you have a good autopilot that can hold a course downwind.

What you're doing right is you're reefing early, before the apparent wind is too strong. If it's too strong, the wind will get ahold of a piece of the sail, and wrench the boat off course, and your AP won't be able to hold the course. If the boat gets sideways to the wind and seas, you'll have to return to the cockpit to steer it on course. If you persist in trying to reef downwind, the same conditions, which are still deteriorating, will make it happen again. At that time, your only recourse will be to head into the wind to reef. Also, downwind, the wind will blow the flapping sail against the mast, causing pressure on the sail slides, making the sail hard to set. Also, the upper part of the sail will snag on the spreaders, and the battens are likely to snag on the aft-most mast stays.

What I'm saying is that you can tuck in a reef downwind while the apparent wind is still relatively light, but you can't do it after the apparent wind has become strong. The best practice is to tuck in a reef to windward.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 05:31:31

Michael, when you reef, do you raise your boom or lower your sail? This may be another difference. If you lower your sail (Which IMHO is better) you have a pile of sail slugs to move down the track. If you raise the boom, you have (maybe) 2 slugs and the gooseneck to move. Since there is so much less resistance, raising the boom could be do-able in either method.

Downwind, I would be worried about an accidental gybe while someone is beside the boom working (ie. tying the ropes in the cringles - what are those little ropes called again??). Could result in a MOB with a partially reefed main in deteriorating conditions. Not ideal. With the traveller centred and main sheeted in, if the wind catched the back of th esail, the boom won't swing, but it would be the same as sailing from the dock with the pigtail on. Of course I single hand a lot, so I consider these things as if the cockpit were empty and I was frantically working on the coachroof with no one to help.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 05:44:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 Don't know why you'd want to reef going down wind<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Apparent wind is less, I'm not beating into the chop and there's no risk of accidentally tacking while feathering the helm. I set the autopilot deep downwind, center the main to relieve pressure and reef it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Agreed, there's no risk of accidentally tacking but, there's a huge risk of accidentally gybing. An uncontrolled gybe in big wind may be the most dangerous thing that can happen on a sailboat. It can be dangerous for crew as well as equipment.

Chris, the C250 has a fixed boom so, lowering the sail is the only option.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 06:22:42

I'm assuming on the C-250 you can tuck in a reef from the cockpit... (?) If so, downwind might not be so bad, although I'd avoid dead-downwind. Sheeting in hard should take off a lot of pressure and makes the possibility of a jibe much less dangerous. (It's how you should jibe.) I vaguely recall Jim B. promoting this method on his C-25, and I believe he has all the necessary lines led back.

Michael is probably reefing his TR in lighter air than many SR sailors would--as he says, he's turning it into more of a SR (except for the headsail).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/08/2010 06:26:18

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 07:58:19

I have a tall rig and couldn't imagine reefing down wind. The main is too big with too much pressure on the sail.

Reefing upwind allows me to reef and still make progress toward my destination. With my reefing system I can reef from the cockpit with the boom off to the side boat and main luffing. The jib or genoa is still drawing and moving the boat, steered by an autopilot. I don't have to worry about the boom flailing around in the cockpit. The reefing lines are led to the cockpit to line clutches right next to my main halyard clutch so I can reef and drop the main at the same time.I don't have to mess with a topping lift because I have a rigid vang supporting the boom. The whole process takes about two minutes. The hardest part about reefing on my boat is adding sail ties after the reef has been set.

Edited by - aeckhart on 06/08/2010 08:00:42

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 09:24:28

Yes, Dave, I have a jiffy reef system and never have to leave the cockpit. I assume Michael's is similarly rigged. I think the risk of an accidental gybe is scarier if somebody is on deck and in the potential path of the boom.

You're right, of course, about sheeting in to gybe safely. My concern would be while there's nothing wrong with a controlled gybe, risking an un-controlled gybe when there are clear options is, IMHO, a dangerous practice.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/08/2010 09:25:55

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2010 : 15:09:37

Good thoughts, all around. Thanks!

I have single-line reefing on both reef points, so I don't have to leave the cockpit - a big advantage. The accidental gybe doesn't scare me because the main is centered.

Al, you are right about wanting to continue making progress toward your destination when you reef, and to be honest, that is my decision process - if I'm already sailing downwind, then I reef downwind. Otherwise, upwind. It was to my amazement, really, that I found the process of reefing downwind less stressful. On Sunday I had the wind pipe up from 10 kts to 20 kts in 5 minutes. My wife's face went white. I put her at the helm and set her on a nice downwind course then shortened sail. If I had turned the boat up into that howling wind and chop to set the reef, it would have scared her to death.

But again, I am aided by single-line reefing on both reef points and an autopilot.

Edited by - windsong on 06/09/2010 15:22:10

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2010 : 07:11:05

Mike,

Frankly I, and I suspect most others, have probably not even thought about reefing downwind and have never tried it. I also suspect that our wives force us to reef in conditions that we would not normally do so, such as sailing downwind in moderate air. You've caught my interest and it's now on my list of things to try out this summer.

In most circumstances though, I am sailing off-wind flying my asymetric spinnaker. If the wind pipes up enough to have to reef the main I'm more concerned about getting a $1600 sail taken down before it tears or the boat pitch poles. Nasty in either case.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2010 : 09:19:09

I always like to turn downwind, center the boom, then do the reef. Then turn back upwind.

Much easier.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2010 : 09:54:48

Michael,

Just wondering...

Does your sailing area - the Long Bay between Cape Fear and Georgetown - have both ocean swells and ocean waves? Or is it so shallow at less than 20 feet that the swells dissipate?

I've sailed on the ocean in rocky places where the depth increases quickly offshore, like off of Newport, RI where the Block Island Sound has nice big swells. I think they're trememdous fun in a C-25! Ask JimB - he's addicted to swells!

Below I copied snapshots of part of charts 13218 (RI) and 11520 (NC/SC) showing the differnce in ocean topography.

Off Newport, RI, from Chart 13218

Off Myrtle Beach, SC from chart 11520

Block Island, Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket, Cape Cod, and Long Island were the product of the last glacier scraping rocks down from Canada. No glaciers in South Carolina, I guess! Just a little ice in your mint juleps!

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2010 : 13:22:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I always like to turn downwind, center the boom, then do the reef. Then turn back upwind. Much easier.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks, Jim. At last, another believer! :)

John, interesting comparison. We have swells. I have sailed straight out from our coastline as far as the Gulf Stream (not in Windsong), and I have not noticed any difference in the shape of the swells as the seafloor drops. The swells change for sure at the Gulf Stream, but that's another matter.

Edited by - on

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Michael Hetzer"Windsong"2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984Myrtle Beach, SC

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC