Association Forum - Not Good News

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Not Good News

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 3

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 10:39:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Forget about her age. If your grandmother set off in a racing sailboat to sail around the world via the Southern Ocean, never having sailed a boat on any off-shore passage, you'd figure she had decided that this was how she wanted to die--or you'd hope she wanted to die, because you'd probably know better than she that she was going to. If your grandfather encouraged it and bought her a hot-rod boat full of systems that would likely fail once she was out there, you'd really wonder about the motivations involved--and maybe try to have him arrested! (No, Abby's parents weren't trying to kill her... at least I don't think so...)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
When you put it in the context of our own families, that rings a bell, because my son just graduated from Ohio State. I haven't tried to chart his life's course for him, because that's his decision to make - not mine. When he began college, I wasn't sure he could make a career out of his major field of study, but I let him choose, and paid his tuition. He changed his field of study halfway through, and I think it was a good decision. I have made my good and bad choices, and now it's his turn. If he had come to me with a plan to sail around the world, I would have supported him, so long as I believed it was realistic, and that he had a realistic chance for success. Why? Because I want him to die? Of course not. Because I want him to live his life in the way that is meaningful to him. If I thought his plan was too cockamamie, I wouldn't have supported him, but, if he had the gumption to figure out how to finance it without my help, I'd have been back on his side again. Why? Because I can't live his life for him, and I certainly have no business trying to tell other parents when or whether to support their children's dreams.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or as Thoreau said:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practise resignation, unless it was quite necessary. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan- like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close, to drive life into a corner, and reduce it to its lowest terms, and, if it proved to be mean, why then to get the whole and genuine meanness of it, and publish its meanness to the world; or if it were sublime, to know it by experience, and be able to give a true account of it in my next excursion. For most men, it appears to me, are in a strange uncertainty about it, whether it is of the devil or of God, and have somewhat hastily concluded that it is the chief end of man here to "glorify God and enjoy him forever."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yet there are ways to do this without risking your life, then endangering others when things go wrong. I am all for grand adventures, but it is up to the adventurer to be prepared for whatever eventuality they come upon, and to prepare themselves to a level that they can extract themselves - and anyone in trouble they come across - when things do go wrong.

Robin saved his own butt when he lost his rig (as I said earlier) and one of the Vendee Globe guys sailed for days with a broken femur, a case in which getting help really was the only option. Chicester may have sailed without his gear and with the wrong keel, but his skills compensated for his errors an dhe got himself out of there. Ditto for the arctic explorers mentioned earlier.

I really don't care that Abby made the journey ill-equipped and ill-prepared. To me it matters more that she didn't have the skills to self-extract when things went wrong.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 11:07:28

Where's Dr. Phil when you need him?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 11:32:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...I want him to live his life in the way that is meaningful to him... and I certainly have no business trying to tell other parents when or whether to support their children's dreams.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Agreed. Although I tend to think that what those dreams are says a lot.

Speaking of supporting dreams... We felt some trepidation over our younger daughter living in a remote W. African village (no electricity, and days from help) for three years--teaching them how to obtain clean water and grow more sustainable crops... We wondered about our older daughter pulling crushed people out of crushed cars, and climbing down cables to evacuate ski gondolas in Colorado... (We very nearly lost her in an avalanche--there are indeed risks everywhere.)

But we supported them whole-heartedly. Neither was trying to show-up the other. Neither was trying to set a record, much less a useless one. Both prepared themselves about as much as can be done. One now works for Doctors Without Borders--the other is an ER nurse. I'm sure the Sunderlands are as proud of Zach and Abby as I am of Liz and Emily... Different strokes.

Sorry, OJ... (Still reading, huh?

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/17/2010 11:34:07

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 12:32:04

I wonder how this convo will go when one of these kids doesn't come home. Will it be flag-draped caskets and honour and glory or will it be comments about how stupid it was to send the kid off.

With Abby we didn't really come close to that - we proved that when things get rough there is an escape plan. This will only give some other kid the false security that a button on an EPIRB will save their life. The carnival will continue until one day that button doesn't work. When that happens the fingerpointing will be really, really interesting.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 15:15:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 [quote][i] Chicester may have sailed without his gear and with the wrong keel, but his skills compensated for his errors an dhe got himself out of there. Ditto for the arctic explorers mentioned earlier.

I really don't care that Abby made the journey ill-equipped and ill-prepared. To me it matters more that she didn't have the skills to self-extract when things went wrong.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That arctic explorer (Shackleton) didn't self-extract. He sailed a small boat to a remote whaling station, where he appealed first to the British government for a ship to rescue the rest of his crew, but was denied. Then he appealed to the Chilean government, which offered the use of Yelcho, a small seagoing tug from its navy. Yelcho reached Elephant Island on 30 August, 1916 and Shackleton quickly evacuated all 22 men. The Franklin expedition through the Northwest Passage was another expedition that was not able to self-extract. A subsequent expedition was sent in a vain effort to rescue the Franklin expedition.

When you expect Abby to be able to extract herself from all perilous situations, you put requirements on her that society didn't put on many of the most honored adventurers in history, and the same expectations are not demanded of modern singlehanded circumnavigators. When they are in trouble, other racers, or other vessels in the area, are dispatched to their aid. Racers in the Fastnet race and the Bermuda race and the Sydney/Hobart race often need assistance. If we regarded it as a weakness and unacceptable for a yacht to ask for assistance when in distress, then the sport of yacht racing, especially over long distances, would come to an end.

Abby apparently took a terrible beating from the seas, with her boat rolling over repeatedly, before it was finally dismasted and she asked for assistance. Most sailors want to give it up when they suffer their first bout with seasickness. Her attempt represented a heroic effort, and it is unfair to impose standards on her that are not imposed on other sailors generally. You may think it's wrong for a sailor to ask for aid when in distress, but I suspect you'd see it differently if you were on the boat that was in distress. That's why the sailing industry manufactures and sells EPIRBs and similar devices.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/17/2010 15:17:50

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 15:46:24

OMG

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 19:34:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 OMG

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OJ, now we see why people can't stop watching Jerry Springer!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2010 : 10:30:03

Dave, It was Heraldo that did the interviews for Fox. Did Springer do some as well? Oh yeah, I was trying to let go of this and have the thread go away.

Sorry to bring it to the top OJ.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 06:43:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I wonder how this convo will go when one of these kids doesn't come home. Will it be flag-draped caskets and honour and glory or will it be comments about how stupid it was to send the kid off.

With Abby we didn't really come close to that - we proved that when things get rough there is an escape plan. This will only give some other kid the false security that a button on an EPIRB will save their life. The carnival will continue until one day that button doesn't work. When that happens the fingerpointing will be really, really interesting.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Oh yeah, I was trying to let go of this and have the thread go away.

Sorry to bring it to the top OJ.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's clear as day that you were trying to make this thread go away when you posted the above opinion again attacking a courageous 16 year old girl who isn't here to defend herself. Did you really expect those of us who defend her to just be quiet? Why criticise Abby for not self-extracting, when those big, strong, experienced professional ocean racers can't self-extract from distress in the Fastnet and Sydney/Hobart races, and they need assistance, too?

Moreover, when I take the time to give thought to a serious discussion, I don't appreciate a response of "OMG" and references to Jerry Springer from someone who has run out of anything thoughtful to contribute. That isn't the mutuality of respect that has attracted people to this forum.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 07:54:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...I don't appreciate...references to Jerry Springer...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That was a metaphor for the compulsion to continue watching something a person considers to be distasteful. I'll drop out after submitting that there are many different perspectives on life and how it should be lived... The people of Kyrgyzstan seem to have an entirely different perspective... I'll be waiting and watching anxiously for my daughter to return safely from a month in that storm.

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 10:42:53

K.I.S.S. folks... The real debate should not be about the child, but what it means to be a minor and the laws which govern abuse of minors. I'm proud of this girl. She does have courage and tenacity. If she had made it I would even be more proud of her. But I still would want the parents to be at least tried for child abuse. After all, if I can be tried for child abuse for leaving my nine year old in the car while I grab a soda at a convenience store, or for not forcing my six year old to ride her bike with a helmet, surely the parents of this child should be held liable for something.

Vern

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 05:27:29

There's an article in the August 2010 SAIL magazine where Robin Lee Graham offers his opinion on current teen circumnavs - interesting.

Edited by - on

Page: of 3

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.