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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 11:41:00

http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2007/0307/Mar19/Mar19.html

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 12:03:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ian Kiernan, an Australian environmentalist and avid yachtsman who has sailed solo round the world, described Sunderland's attempt as "foolhardy".

"I don't know what she's doing in the... ocean as a 16-year-old in the middle of winter," he said.(emphasis added)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just another hint toward the speed and record being the motivator above all else. She could have been far better prepared had she waited for a southern ocean summer.

GaryB - The sense that I got from reading her website over the last few months was that she did some singlehanding along the coast but the distances were not clear. She certainly didn't report any trips as far as Hawaii.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/11/2010 12:03:42

millermg
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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 12:17:55

Ok this quote from the article above proves my point that these parents have no realistic sense of risk and expect a rescue to be part of the equasion:

Her parents, speaking on morning TV news programs, said that Abby's journey was no more dangerous than other activities that teenagers do and that she proved to them that she was up to the challenge. "Let's face it, life is dangerous. How many teenagers die in car accident[s]?" Abby Sunderland's father, Laurence Sunderland, told "Good Morning America."

If rescue weren't an option, she'd be dead. Thank God for the Aussies.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 13:34:22

What if Abby had been a 40-year-old man?

Would the efforts to rescue him after suffering a dismasting in the Indian Ocean be any more palatable or less risky?

Some of these comments have me scratching my head... it's as if some people would rather have Abby getting tattooed and pierced at the local mall then later having unprotected sex with her boyfriend like most every other 16 year old girl. Sybil Ludington, Sacajawea, Pocahontas, Nellie Bly and Tania Abei all should've stayed home, I guess. Horace Greely too, for that matter.

As a former Coast Guard pilot, I would've been honored to help this fantastic and brave young sailor. Conversely, I have spent many hours and risked my neck for so-called "mature" sailors who weren't nearly as prepared for a situation as was she. She was attempting an extremely challenging journey at a tender age for sure. Blasting off on a solo circumnavigation isn't for everyone... certainly not me. But by God, she tried and made it around Cape Horn through the Roarin' 40's on past Cape Town and well into the Indian Ocean.

We could stand a lot more Abby Sunderlands and lot fewer Lady Gagas. Just my humble opinion.

"A ship in the harbor is a safe ship, but that's not what ships were built for."
- John Shedd

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 15:24:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Yes! Why do we idolize Sir Francis Chichester and Sir Ernest Shackleton and Joshua Slocum and the Pardeys and Charles Lindbergh, and all the other trailblazers, but we find all sorts of reasons to criticize a young girl and her parents when she wants to blaze her own trail?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Because, Steve, she's not blazing a trail. At best, she would have been two months younger than the youngest person to do the same thing. To compare her to the folks you listed -- all of whom were mature adults when they did their things -- I don't think is appropriate. This was about being in a record book, not doing anything new.

I've spent much of my career working with youth and young adults. While there are mature sixteen year olds and immature eighty-six year olds, there's a good reason why minors are minors. Experience and the wisdom it can bring really do count.

By the way, whatever international sailing authority it is that certifies sailing records has announced they will no longer have a "youngest" category. I think that's . . . mature . . . of them.

Edited by - Even Chance on 06/11/2010 15:25:26

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 16:01:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 How much experience does she have sailing solo for long distances? Has she done anything like California to Hawaii or Washington state to Southern Cal?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">From what I recall, no, and no. She was had some sailing experience, but never over the horizon that I heard of.

There's an Open 40 named Dragon near me--very impressive, but way too much of a hot-rod for the Southern Ocean for anybody but a crazy person. (To give you an idea, its PHRF is -21.) There are, of course, some crazy people who single-hand them around the world, but with a whole lot more experience such that they know how crazy they have to be!

Now the French fishing vessel is going to try to rendezvous (borrowing their word) with her some 2,000 miles from Australia, in seas that could be as "calm" as 10', but more likely 20 or so... I hope nobody gets hurt trying to get her off. As for the boat, I doubt it'll be scuttled--its multi-chamber construction probably makes that too much of a project to expect the fishermen to undertake. If they can get her, they've fulfilled their responsibility as seamen. The boat will end up in Myanmar, Antarctica, San Diego, or wherever...

Cat30: I and both of my daughters, one of whom spend three years in a remote village in Mali, and the other who is an emergency room nurse, professional ski patroller, and moutain biker (on real mountains), are "secure" enough that we don't need to try to set records for things we know way to little about--much less set any records at all. This type of record-setting is by definition beyond any reasonable justification for anybody else risking life, limb, or treasure to save the person who purposefully put themselves into a position that nobody with that little experience and preparation should ever attempt. Lindberg and Erhart set out with no expectation of being saved from their follies. One made it--the other didn't. Nobody risked anything but them.

I have no admiration for parents who foster this intensely self-centered focus and a need for recognition for doing things that nobody with that lack of preparation and maturity should do. Hopefully Abby will by humbled... but I suspect deep down she'll feel humiliated and unfulfilled.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/11/2010 16:07:45

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 16:37:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tom Gauntt
 What if Abby had been a 40-year-old man?

Would the efforts to rescue him after suffering a dismasting in the Indian Ocean be any more palatable or less risky?

Some of these comments have me scratching my head... it's as if some people would rather have Abby getting tattooed and pierced at the local mall then later having unprotected sex with her boyfriend like most every other 16 year old girl. Sybil Ludington, Sacajawea, Pocahontas, Nellie Bly and Tania Abei all should've stayed home, I guess. Horace Greely too, for that matter.

As a former Coast Guard pilot, I would've been honored to help this fantastic and brave young sailor. Conversely, I have spent many hours and risked my neck for so-called "mature" sailors who weren't nearly as prepared for a situation as was she. She was attempting an extremely challenging journey at a tender age for sure. Blasting off on a solo circumnavigation isn't for everyone... certainly not me. But by God, she tried and made it around Cape Horn through the Roarin' 40's on past Cape Town and well into the Indian Ocean.

We could stand a lot more Abby Sunderlands and lot fewer Lady Gagas. Just my humble opinion.

"A ship in the harbor is a safe ship, but that's not what ships were built for."
- John Shedd
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
He probably wouldn't have attempted this voyage at this time of the year in that type of boat. Maturity and common sense would have told him not to go.

Based on the fact she had to call daddy to come help fix the boat a couple of times and the fact she attempted to make this leg at this time of the year makes me believe solo navigation wasn't for her either.

If you're going to make a solo circumnavigation do it totally on your own including getting repairs handled in other parts of the world without calling daddy. That's what the other sailors mentioned above that actually blazed a new trail did.

There are many ships captains around the world that stay in port from time to time when the weather gets rough because they have the experience, maturity, and respect for the sea and their crew. They know the limits of their ability and that of the boat/ship.

To borrow a saying from my other passion, flying, "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots".

I agree with your comment about less Lady Gagas.

Edited by - GaryB on 06/11/2010 17:46:24

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/11/2010 : 19:18:20

Tom, my criticism is not of a 16 y/o girl. My criticism is of an apparently ill-prepared 16 year old girl. I applauded Jessica Watson's recently completed trip. She document clear, adequate preparation including significant solo offshore experiences. My criticism is of Abby's parents who lacked the wisdom to recognize her lack of preparation even after their son's recent solo trip around. The said that they chose the non-stop route because the were concerned for her well being in some ports if she were to follow her brother's path. He had a close call with Indonesian pirates. That's reasonable but, it reinforces their lack of understanding about where the real dangers are in this kind of endeavour.

I'd never make a blanket criticism about adventurous kids. I'd encourage them. I'd just be sure they had the best possible preparation.

The fact that she was ill-prepared does not excuse the 40 year old that is equally ill-prepared simply because he is an adult.

This trip was more about the record, book writing and keeping up with her brother than it was about adventure. Even in one of her recent blogs, she was talking not about the sailing but about writing her book.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 06/12/2010 : 06:46:26

Where's the book deal?

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/12/2010 : 08:15:23

The French fishing boat has her.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/12/2010 : 08:35:56

Awesome!

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/12/2010 : 08:58:48

Glad to hear she is alive.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/12/2010 : 09:03:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 Where's the book deal?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Don't know but I bet sales have just surpassed her brother's book by a bunch!

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 19:07:50

a different perspective:

http://www.petethomasoutdoors.com/2010/06/abby-sunderland-101.html

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 20:26:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From link originally posted by Champipple
 "-- Marianne Sunderland is due to give birth to a son any day. He has been given the nickname Charlie so maybe that will stick. There's no truth to the rumor that Charlie will attempt to become the first infant to sail around the world alone."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">An unproven assertion.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/16/2010 20:27:53

Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 05:27:11

I thought that was an attempt at humour. I thought it was a poor attempt at humour, but at least he tried.

Edited by - on

Renzo
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 06:40:46

I just am wondering what the tone of this thread (and the News reports) would be if she was successful, or if her endeavor was related to a land based record. I seem to remember an interview with a young boy (also 16 I think) and his parents who was preparing to be the youngest person to climb Mount Everest. The comments of the reporter and from the public were favorable and complimentary. I also seem to remember a youngest world record being broken, last year that had something to do with flying, That drew nothing but adulation from the media and the public for the young person and his parents. The same has been true for other youthful records that have been broken.

I guess that nothing succeeds like success, and that something exists in the public psyche that regards activities involving the sea and sailing as, inherently, more dangerous and more mysterious than endeavors involving mountains, wilderness areas,animals,or mechanical methods of transportation.

Edited by - Renzo on 06/17/2010 06:41:57

Tom Gauntt
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 06:41:32

This reporter's story echoed many of my own thoughts and concerns. Would Abby have been safer if she had a bigger/smaller, faster/slower, stronger/lighter boat? Perhaps. Would she have been better suited to have waited another year or two or ten? Probably. Did she have parents standing in her way or parents encouraging and even pushing her to do this? Obviously she had parents pushing her and not holding her back. Would she have been safer sitting on the dock rather than sailing on her boat? Absolutely.

For me this story isn't about the nuts and bolts of a circumnavigation... planning it to the gnat's ass for perfect everything... vessel, sailor, weather, food, seas, shelter, communications, etc. It isn't about jury-rigging a make-shift sail in the Southern Ocean or receiving help from both family and strangers along the way. It isn't about success or failure. It isn't about death or fame. It's a philosophical glimpse into this spin around our little solar system for as long as we manage to hang on and what we do with our greatest gift: Time. It's about the triumph and perseverance of the "human spirit."

What drives people to do extraordinary things? Sometimes it's money (Chris Columbus) and sometimes it's fame (Evel Kneivel) and sometimes one simply climbs a mountain to see if it can be done. Somebody mentioned earlier that there are "old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." My thought is, if there were never any "bold" pilots (of which I am not) in the first place, there wouldn't be any "old" pilots either (of which I am). Wilbur and Orville could have just as easily sold bicycles in Dayton rather than taking the foolhardy risk of going aloft in a "flying machine." Thankfully, Orville and Wilbur listened more to their own hearts and very little to the critics and naysayers. That's what makes a trailblazer and a pioneer. Positive attitude in the face of daunting opposition.

Okay... the weather's perfect, my boat is capable, the crew is willing. It's time to go sailing!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 06:46:32

Thanks for the article, Duane. In it, Pete Thomas expressed my views exactly.

Well said Tom and Renzo!

Almost all the solo circumnavigators have written books, and that was part of their means of paying the costs of their ventures. I don't understand why it's the focus of such criticism. Of course she planned to write a book, and probably will still write one. There are probably still bills to be paid.

The classic singlehanders also did foolish things and demonstrated a lack of preparation. Chichester began a singlehanded circumnavigation in a custom-built yacht that had just been launched and had not had a sea trial, and he only realized that the keel was improperly designed after he rolled it over twice south of the Cape of Good Hope. He put in at Australia, and had the boat hauled, the keel cut off, and a newly designed keel installed in two weeks, and then he left for Cape horn, once again without a sea trial of the new keel.

At the beginning of that voyage, he forgot to bring his navigational tables with him, and had to work out his navigational sights longhand.

Abby's critics expect her to plan everything perfectly, and for everything to go exactly as planned. That doesn't happen in any voyage, or in any complicated venture.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/17/2010 07:44:19

OJ
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 07:56:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 . . . Abby's critics expect her to plan everything perfectly . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

She's too young to plan everything perfectly.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 08:07:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 . . . Abby's critics expect her to plan everything perfectly . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

She's too young to plan everything perfectly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 08:19:43

Forget about her age. If your grandmother set off in a racing sailboat to sail around the world via the Southern Ocean, never having sailed a boat on any off-shore passage, you'd figure she had decided that this was how she wanted to die--or you'd hope she wanted to die, because you'd probably know better than she that she was going to. If your grandfather encouraged it and bought her a hot-rod boat full of systems that would likely fail once she was out there, you'd really wonder about the motivations involved--and maybe try to have him arrested! (No, Abby's parents weren't trying to kill her... at least I don't think so...)

It's not really that Abby was the youngest--it's that she was one of the most poorly-prepared. Part of the reason she was poorly prepared was that she wanted to be the youngest, and time had run out. (She needed a sat-phone lesson on how to change a fuel filter? Oh well, nobody can know everything...) But we're all talking about her, so much of the mission has been accomplished. Thank goodness EPIRBs (and a quarter-million) make rescues out there possible.

Go ahead, fame-seekers, and seek your glory. There are a lot of other pursuits and accomplishments that I admire a great deal more than going alone, poorly prepared, to where you're not meant to be (the Southern Ocean on a sled or Mount Everest with no oxygen), and where all you'll have contributed to your fellow man is, if you're deemed crazy enough, fifteen minutes of your face on TV talk-shows (and/or an obituary in People Magazine).

Sarge out.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/17/2010 08:27:25

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 08:57:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Forget about her age. If your grandmother set off in a racing sailboat to sail around the world via the Southern Ocean, never having sailed a boat on any off-shore passage, you'd figure she had decided that this was how she wanted to die--or you'd hope she wanted to die, because you'd probably know better than she that she was going to. If your grandfather encouraged it and bought her a hot-rod boat full of systems that would likely fail once she was out there, you'd really wonder about the motivations involved--and maybe try to have him arrested! (No, Abby's parents weren't trying to kill her... at least I don't think so...)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
When you put it in the context of our own families, that rings a bell, because my son just graduated from Ohio State. I haven't tried to chart his life's course for him, because that's his decision to make - not mine. When he began college, I wasn't sure he could make a career out of his major field of study, but I let him choose, and paid his tuition. He changed his field of study halfway through, and I think it was a good decision. I have made my good and bad choices, and now it's his turn. If he had come to me with a plan to sail around the world, I would have supported him, so long as I believed it was realistic, and that he had a realistic chance for success. Why? Because I want him to die? Of course not. Because I want him to live his life in the way that is meaningful to him. If I thought his plan was too cockamamie, I wouldn't have supported him, but, if he had the gumption to figure out how to finance it without my help, I'd have been back on his side again. Why? Because I can't live his life for him, and I certainly have no business trying to tell other parents when or whether to support their children's dreams.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 09:39:42

This thread now reminds me of the protesters that attended Sarah Palin's resignation speech - holding signs that said "SICK OF SARAH"

I know, I know, no one is forcing me to read here - but having said this - I do feel better!

Edited by - OJ on 06/17/2010 09:40:52

Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 10:25:24

Good or bad, I now have 3 women interested in crewing for me who have all heard of Abby, and never tried sailing before...

I thank her for risking her life so I could get crew for my beercan races.

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