Association Forum - No such thing as a dumb question; right?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

No such thing as a dumb question; right?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Previous Page | Next Page

Author

Topic

Page: of 3

limey156
1st Mate

Members Avatar

89 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 11:41:29

dflynnatc, i would put it at the low point preferably, or the center. i would follow catalina's example and probably route it the same and have the exit in the transom. you could also run less hose by having it exit into the cockpit and then drain out, but this may not be ideal. btw this advice comes from my 2 full months experience with Catalina's :)

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 11:55:33

Limey's advice is good, but I am not familiar with the floors in your boat. If the floors form dams, then your routing will be different. You may want to approach Catalina and ask them if they have a drawing of how th eoriginal installation was set up. This may give you an indication of what to replicate.

If you are already down there mucking about, it may be easier to run 2 hoses at once rather than run one hose twice. What I am saying is that you could install or rough-in both a manual and electric pump at the same time.

If your goal is to have the bilge completely dry, then you will be disappointed. The pump will not draw once you are down to 1/2 inch of liquid or so. Then its up to you to mop up the rest with a sponge or something. This is not the purpose of the pump anyway. Its purpose is to prevent the boat from sinking. Wherever you install the pump, it should accomplish that as long as the pump is on the bottom of the boat.

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 12:22:29

Still unclear: Remember, I have no remnants of anything; (that I have found) so where? In the big Port Locker? aka The Dumpster?

Edited by - on

limey156
1st Mate

Members Avatar

89 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 12:30:32

i would put the actual pump in the dumpster, so that you can pump it from the cockpit. this is how mine is from catalina. that way you could pump and sail i guess, if trying to make a port. from there the pump exits to a hose leading through the transom. the intake hose goes from the lowest point in the bilge, through a hole (i need to putty closed on my boat) in the bottom of the bulkhead that the electrical panel is mounted on, and up into the pump.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 15:55:13

Dennis,yours is NOT a dumb question! In fact I think it is one of the greatest mysteries about Catalina 25s. My 79 came with the built in bilge pump mounted in the dumpster locker with the handle exposed to the cockpit. It's intake hose ends in the compartment under the stairs right next to the end of the keel molding. For the life of me I can't figure out just what this is supposed to drain. It doesn't access the cabin sole directly, and it doesn't access the space between the cabin sold and the hull directly. I suppose if you had enough water in the boat to be filling this area under the stairs you would surely be wanting to pump it out. And this area is open to the sea cock under the sink. But in terms of just removing water from the bilge occasionally, I have no clue as to how this pump would help.

Edited by - on

Jan Briede
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 16:43:38

My 79 has no manual pump, but what I think was an after market thing they had an electric one installed; although it has it's own drain hole in the stern. The pump is located in the bottom between the keel bolts.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 17:09:10

Keep in mind that the longer the distance you are pumping, the less effective the pump is. In my old 78, with the dinette interior we had three pumps.

The original manual bilge pump was mounted in the sail locker as previously mentioned. The end of the hose was long enough to reach the a number of feet under the quarterberth into the settee area. It was not tacked down so we could use it just about wherever we wanted. It discharged out the transom.

Number two was an electric that was in the port aft setee. It discharged right above the waterline on the port side....(dpo installed it, should have ran it a few more feet up the hull. This one was installed while the boat was on the hard - with a different low point than when on land...)

The third was an 800 gph that was installed right at the keel cable and went directly aft. The discharge hole for this was on the transom opposite of the manual one.

Where the low point on those boats sits changes based on at rest in a cradle, jack stands, at the dock with keel up, keel down full water tank, gas tank head tank etc. If you install a manual one, many boats I've raced have had one that has a hose that can be moved around.

Your exit hole should be as close as possible to the pump. However, you can always upsize the pump in order to not have your through hull in an aesthetically unpleasing location.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

Members Avatar

204 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 19:44:12

Dennis,

It sounds like the early models didn't come with any bilge pumps at all. My '82 came with a Guzzler manual pump. The pump is installed inside the port lazarette (a/k/a dumpster) with the suction end under the cabin sole just forward of the keel cable. The outlet thru-hull is located in the transom just outboard of the rudder. Here are a few pictures from my boat:

This is the manual pump as it's located inside the dumpster:

This is the manual pump handle inside the cockpit:

Here are the thru-hulls for the bilge pumps:

Here is a picture of the Guzzler 400:

I have the original Guzzler 400 manual and I also installed a Rule 2000 electric bilge pump next to the swing keel cable. I also keep a portable electric bilge pump handy as it can get into very small spaces and can also be used to rinse down the deck or anchor. It can obviously be used as a third bilge pump if the need should arise. The electric bilge pump has its own dedicated thruhull opposite the manual bilge thru-hull. I chose to make a little longer run in order to have the thru-hulls exit in the transom, rather than the side of the hull, in order to keep the thru-hulls above the waterline while under sail.

Here's a picture of the portable:

I do not think the bilge pumps on our boats were meant to keep the bilge completely dry, but to provide for a way to dewater the boat should it be holed or otherwise begin to leak. Most of these pumps would adequately dewater a small leak, but you'd be in real trouble if you had a broken seacock... the pump could buy you some time while you tried to make to a beach, but without some way to slow/stop the water, you are fighting a battle you will not win. That's why I also carry these:

...just in case I loose a seacock (while opening or closing it). Foam conical plugs are available as well. I keep the appropriate size tied to each thru-hull.

Depending on where/how you sail, a bilge pump is a great safety device. Since you're just up the road in Rock Hall, I know you know the Bay isn't very deep... but it is deep enough. We are almost never out of sight of land, but the piece of mind I have from having two independent dewatering pumps (and a third portable) means one less thing to worry about.

Edited by - Tom Gauntt on 06/16/2010 21:14:15

dflynnatc
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 20:04:40

I can see "clearer" now.....thank you all for your input and Tom for the pics. Definitely pics helped and I never even thought about the plugs. So new decision tree:

If your engine doesn't have a alternator.... but... you do have solar cells....but your boat doesn't yet have shore-power hookup...... and you could only install ONE pump.... which one would you go for? The Guzzler type manual or an 12 volt electric with a hand held backup?

Edited by - dflynnatc on 06/16/2010 20:06:27

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

Members Avatar

204 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 21:09:47

Dennis,

There's a great deal of experience on this forum and I'm sure those folks will weigh in, but here's my thinking: The worst time for a boat to be sinking is when I am on it. The worst time to try to sail a boat is when it is sinking. Trying to find and slow a leak while underway on the Chesapeake Bay while maintaing course and speed is not the time I want to be manually dewatering my boat. So, I vote for an electric pump to start with and then add a manual. The run-of-the-mill 12v bilge pump uses about 2 amps per hour to pump 500 gallons. The average lead-acid Group 24 marine battery has about 50 to 60 amp hour capacity. So roughly speaking, that little pump should run 20 hours or more before the battery gives up and pump out 10,000 gallons of water! The problem is, it never works that way. The capacity of the battery is greatly affected by the age and condition of the battery. The 500 gallons per hour number touted by the pump maker is a no-resistance flow with a zero vertical rise. If you have to raise the water a foot, the flow rate is probably decreased by a third or so. So what do you need? Johnson makes a 12v pump with a 2200gph capacity using 8.6 aH. With two relatively good marine batteries, that should give you several hours of protection.

Lots of ideas and philosophies... your mileage may vary.

Be wary of "automatic" pumps... they run for a few seconds many times a day. The pump looks for pressure indicating water in the bilge. It pumps until pressure is reduced then it shuts off waiting patiently for its next opportunity to test itself. If you don't have an AC battery charger, I'd avoid those and go with a float switch type electric pump.

Here's a good opinion I dug up from the archives:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 09:33:31

Tom, Re: Guzzler.... is that handle designed to be there fulltime or is it easily removable/stowable.

df

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 10:39:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dflynnatc
 I can see "clearer" now.....thank you all for your input and Tom for the pics. Definitely pics helped and I never even thought about the plugs. So new decision tree:

If your engine doesn't have a alternator.... but... you do have solar cells....but your boat doesn't yet have shore-power hookup...... and you could only install ONE pump.... which one would you go for? The Guzzler type manual or an 12 volt electric with a hand held backup?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If only one - manual. If you lose battery power - say by a lightning strike that puts a hole in the hull, most likely your electronics are toast too. After you get the manual pump, if you still have a need then look into a 300 gph rule pump (30-40 bucks)

Alternator, solar, shorepower shouldn't weigh in on the decision. If you have a battery, the pump only runs when you turn it on - even an automatic needs you to flip a power switch. Having the manual one first takes the electricity out of the equation.

Same with carrying paper charts and a GPS.

Edited by - Champipple on 06/17/2010 13:07:36

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 13:21:55

Fires have a way of completely destroying electric stuff, but only partly disabling manual stuff.

My vote is also for manual as a primary, electric as backup, bucket as "hail Mary".

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

Members Avatar

204 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 17:38:03

Dennis,

Like I said, lots of opinions and superb suggestions and ideas. You can plan any imaginable contingency, and the one you never consider is the one that bites you. The reality is, the way our boats are designed coupled with the way we use them, it is my opinion that you'll rarely have a true "compounded emergency," as we say in the aviation bidness. While fires do happen and lightning can strike, many other things less dramatic can just as easily ruin your day... a broken seacock, primarily. An uncontrollable fire aboard a sinking vessel is a true compounded emergency that no bilge pump of any lineage would solve, manual, electric or even magical.

My point in having an electric pump doing the primary work of dewatering is based on my opinion that I'll have other stuff to worry about without being tethered to the manual pump handle... finding and plugging the leak, asking for help (since I'm not a 16 year-old girl), finding and sailing to safe harbor. Let that little pump run as long as it can. Where we sail, we're rarely more than a few miles from some kind of shore. With two good batteries, I figure that gives me plenty of time to make it to some shore. It can pump out a lot more water than I can and my skillset will be better used actually sailing the boat and damage control. If you find yourself sailing when you are likely to struck by lightning, I humbly suggest you partner in with someone on a bigger boat designed for the heavy weather that cumulonimbus mama jamas produce quite predictably and readily. I avoid sailing in my C25 when the threat of heavy weather is in the offing. For me, sailing should be enjoyable. Riding out a strong thunderstorm is not my idea of fun.

In sum, I almost always favor the manual and mechanical over the electric and electronic. It's one of the reasons I prefer sailing to powerboating... of course as I get longer in the tooth, the appeal of motoring grows stronger. I teach my kids how to sail by the wet compass and take bearings with the hand compass and plot their position on a chart. But that little Standard Horizon chartplotter is supremely sweet! I trust in my abilities and judgment to get me out of most any scrape I find myself in, by I still have a membership to TowBoatUS. A leaded line works great, but so does my little sonar depth finder. In the end, it's one the greatest things about sailing and this community: lots of interested and experienced people offering their advice. The best part is, it is YOU that gets to decide how YOU want to tackle this issue. A tightly knit band of fierce individuals! Shoot me a note if you want/need any help putting in whatever system you decide upon. I'm just down the road...

P.S. THe Guzzler handle is removable... meaning you can hide it out of the way. You could also lose it, too.

Regards,

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 18:33:54

Tom, you were correct about the wealth of diverging opinions: all well thought out.
I think these good arguments have led me to the the 3rd solution which is _to do both_. As pointed out earlier in this thread, one should consider running both, while doing the project. But until I did a little recon... I thought it would be too restrictive financially. Seems that they are well worth the price and peace of mind. I also like your portable idea and plugs!

Re: Assistance.... thank you for the offer.... that is very kind..... may end up taking you up on that.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tom Gauntt
 Dennis,

Like I said, lots of opinions and superb suggestions and ideas. .........

Regards,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2010 : 04:01:44

<<Be wary of "automatic" pumps... they run for a few seconds many times a day. >>

I used an automatic pump for about 5 years on one battery with a 5 watt solar charger. Worked great and never failed.

Never did get an idea of the amount of power it used when sensing current.

Beats having a float switch stick, which happens.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2010 : 21:09:01

Mine uses 0.08 amps for 5 seconds, just under 1 watt. If my math is right, that's about 1 amp hour every year if used continuously

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

Members Avatar

204 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2010 : 13:52:18

Dave,

Not sure what pump you are using, but the typical "Rule 500" draws 1.9 amps per hour and cycles every 2.5 minutes.

Doing some quick math of my own, I figure 1.9 aH is 0.031 amps per minute. The Rule cycles for 5 seconds every 2 and a half minutes means it runs two minutes per hour (24 cycles per hour times 5 seconds equals 120 seconds or 2 minutes). Two minutes times 0.031 equals 0.06 amps per hour. Per day, total goes to 1.48, 10.41 per week, and finally 41.6 amps per month.

This isn't a big deal if you have some way to charge your batteries, but it can run down a battery that is isolated from a charging source.

As always, math in public is not my strong suit... Your mileage may vary. Offer void where prohibited.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2010 : 17:44:49

Your math is fine, but I wouldn't have bought a pump that draws that much current to sense water. The Rule 500 draws 1.9 A when pumping and the new automatic ones cycle for 1 second every 2.5 minutes, but I don't know what it draws in the sensing phase. I'm not sure what I have, but I used it on my last boat so it's pretty old. I bought it based on the low draw and that it only cycled 4 times an hour because my charging system was bringing a charged battery to the boat and swapping it out for the discharged battery to take home at the end of the day. I guess I'm not up to date, but that's not unusual.

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2010 : 18:40:12

Update: Got a look today.... no hatches in cabin floor and no remnants of any bilge equipment....

Edited by - on

pjeffarch
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 10:43:31

I have an inch or so of water in my bilge after every rain - but there' no evidence of leaks or water in the salon (cushions are carpeted floor are dry)...where's the water coming from? I don't think I have a leak because I'm still floating.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 13:54:35

The possibilities are plentiful... Window frames (letting water run down between the inner liner and the hull), cockpit scuppers, and the rub-rail are common sources. Sometimes, at some point, getting to a bone-dry bilge isn't worth the effort. But it might be worthwhile to get a quick moisture meter check on your side-decks in case a window leak is causing moisture in the plywood core.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/20/2010 13:58:20

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2010 : 06:19:22

Rule 500 gph submersible bilge pump on sale at the evil empire for 1/5th a boat unit until July 4th. (that's 20 bucks at westmarine)

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2010 : 06:58:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 Rule 500 gph submersible bilge pump on sale at the evil empire for 1/5th a boat unit until July 4th. (that's 20 bucks at westmarine)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Your pulling our legs!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2010 : 10:11:37

nope - the float (if you choose to purchase separately) is another 25 clams, but the sale last til the 4th

Edited by - on

Page: of 3

Topic

Previous Page | Next Page

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.