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Electrical Short in Cabin Lighting Circuit

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redeye
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Initially Posted - 07/06/2010 : 04:42:28

I turned on the cabin lights Thursday night and the running lights came on at the same time. I found the short last month (so I thought) wrapping the hot wire metalic tap that was exposed on the running light circuit. ( Pictured below red wires on the left with elect tape on the split )

I don't like the wire taps Catalina used ( although they lasted 25 years, so how can I whine ) as they have sharp edges, rust and are exposed, I whine.

I replaced one section of wire to the aft light, aft from where it comes out from the liner, to the panel, and plugged it into a fuse holder/switch that was unused and then found the fuse holder was broken. The back of my electrical panel looks like this now:

I added a fuse holder block on the right but I'm only using it as a grounding buss bar, the positive is not connected.

So... anyhoo... I've found an electrical supplier that probably has the fuse holders and switches, and I am going to change out the holders and run a new positive and ground wire to the front and back navigation lights. I'll inspect the hot/positive wire I remove and see if I can identify the location of the short.

The short is gone ( the two circuits no longer come on at the same time ) but I suspect the location of the short was simply pulled apart while I was working on the wiring harness, soon to return.

Pretty frustrating.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - on

DaveR
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Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 07:09:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Pretty frustrating. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's my definition of marine wiring. It'd be OK if it didn't deteriorate so quickly but in salt water it's an ongoing battle. Right now everything works except my anchor light, so I feel pretty good about it

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 07:37:41

Ya know the funny thing to me is that DC wiring is so simple. But, boy has it been a bear to replace. I was pretty whacked out after working in that dumpster.

It's good to have fresh wire to the nav lights. ( I'll let you know when I actually have it. )

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 17:43:17

RAY,
I'm replacing all of my 12v wiring (no 120v) a little at a time. Nav lights are done, cabin circuit just about done. Saving the mast wiring for last. If you need more supplies, look into "www.genuinedealz.com", good marine stuff at great prices.
Good luck,
tc

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 17:45:48

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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 19:34:59

<center>My worst C-25 elec. short (so far...)</center>
I replaced my entire original C-25 electrical system about 10 years ago, except for the cabin lights wiring buried in between the deck and headliner. The new system has been extremely reliable except for the buried parts of the cabin light circuit which I've had to repair several times.

A couple times when I went out to the dock to check on the boat after dark (well, really I just go out there to visit it and hang out in it for a bit), I thought I smelled roasting printed circuit board. But it was very faint, and even after sniffing around every gadget with a circuit board in it, I couldn't pin down the source of the odor.

Finally, one evening when the cabin lights had been on for a while, and I thought I was smelling toasted electronics again, I noticed a thin trail of smoke emerging from the recess above the galley sink. It was coming from a burned spot in the fiberglass headliner above the sink. After some poking around, I found a short in the cabin light circuit which had been smoldering whenever that circuit had power. Not enough current to trip the breaker or noticeably dim the lights, but enough heat to slow cook the fiberglass, which is the same stuff some circuit boards are made of. Using a carbide burr in a Dremel, I enlarged the hole enough to see, and fix the problem. It seems the cabin light power and return wires were crossed over each other in a tight spot from the factory. Over the years, pressure from the weight of the deck, crew jumping aboard, or just standing there, etc. had pinched through the single layer insulation, allowing the conductors to touch.

Yikes! That could have turned out a lot worse!

I trimmed back, stripped, soldered, and heat shrunk a repair splice from there to the nearest new part of that circuit. Now, don't y'all panic and go cutting up your headliners looking for those crossed and pinched wires. I'm sure every one of these boats went together slightly different. (So your wiring will be pinched somewhere else entirely!

)

Another time, I was installing a port side cabin top winch, and replacing the galley overhead light fixture with a round one which would perfectly cover the winch hardware. While drilling mounting holes for the winch and line clutches, I managed to hit the old cabin light wires not once, but twice.

Same fix -- excavate damage with carbide burr, solder in splice, and fill with epoxy-based putty to try and hide the mess.

So as much as I admire the engineering and build quality of the Catalina 25, the original electrical system is one of the parts I'm least impressed with.

-- Leon Sisson

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 03:59:51

Tom
Thanks for the referral. I've got a great electrical supply shop here in Atlanta that carries just about anything you could imagine, and great personal support. Been using them for years. ( I actually can hardly believe they are still in business, given all the changes: http://www.acksupply.com/ since 1946. It is great to be able to get "old" parts like the original fuse holders rather that buy a whole new circuit board. And as I'm a Bill the Cat fan I love the memorable name, ACK.

Yepper... one circuit at a time. Not that many circuits really.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 04:14:53

Thanks Leon that helps me a lot. I dislike "buried" wiring, especially on a boat that flexes so much. Boats take so much abuse that out of sight and out of mind is not my idea of a good design.

I think I'd rather run my wires somewhere I can get to them, and then cover them with removable trim, maybe. I'd been kinda running this over in my head, and your story has me convinced. I'm kinda shocked it did not burn out a fuse.

Of course it is kinda silly to whine about something that lasted 25 years when I'm replacing it with some parts that don't last 3 months.

Evil Empire!

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 04:51:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Leon Sisson
 . . . I trimmed back, stripped, soldered, and heat shrunk a repair . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

An interesting thread on solder verses crimp:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/40595-crimping-versus-soldering.html

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 06:12:16

Ya know.. I wanna get that electrical in order before I add that bale of Hay.

Smokin..

Anybody know where I can get an infrared controller (sender/reciever) so I can turn on the deck light from my car key as I walk out the dock?

BeepBeep..

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 08:54:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 . . . Anybody know where I can get an infrared controller (sender/reciever) so I can turn on the deck light from my car key as I walk out the dock?

BeepBeep..<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Puleze . . .

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 10:54:46

It doesn't get any funnier than this...

http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2Fhobby.htm%23Dimmer

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 10:56:48

http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&category=PCB&Page2Disp=/specs/universal_remote_control.htm

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 10:58:35

$24.95

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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 07/08/2010 : 21:32:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
...An interesting thread on solder verses crimp:
[[url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/40595-crimping-versus-soldering.html"]Crimped vs. Soldered Boat Wiring[/url]]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Did you have to go and do that?

It took me hours to read through all the pedantic debate, chest thumping, and ruffled feathers, only to come back out about where I went in. I'll summarize for those with better sense and not enough time to read through 24 web pages on the topic (with a poor signal-to-noise ratio).

Ahem...

Always use top quality crimp connectors ($1/ea) with adhesive filled heat shrink.

If you're really, truly good at soldering, you can also solder the connection after crimping, before heat shrinking. But you'd better use a high watt thermostatically controlled soldering station, heat sink clips to minimize wicking, diluted RMA flux washed off with 100% alcohol, eutectic solder, and heat shrink at least an inch past the solder. Extra credit for stepped layers of heatshrink to spread stress. And even then, you should lie awake wondering if you were deluding yourself about your soldering skills.

Plan to save money by crimping? Ha! A top quality crimp tool retails for around $1,000 +/-$250. And in that price range, one size does not fit all, so you'll need several. And by the way, if your $1K crimpers aren't calibrated periodically, you should probably lose some sleep over that too. And perform pull tests before and after each crimping session. (Charts were thoughtfully provided.)

I'm exaggerating slightly.

There is some good info in that thread for novices, providing they can sort the pearls from the used oats. Excellent emphasis on gas tight connections and strain relief. A lot of the crimp vs. solder religious debate came down to most DIY boaters aren't expert at either. And crimps are more forgiving of less than ideal skills and tools. Some of the crimp-only folks went a bit far out on a limb claiming soldering isn't used, or is frowned upon, in flight hardware. The more level headed moderates pointed out that both soldering and crimping have their place in building and maintaining reliable boat electrical systems.

-- Leon Sisson

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/09/2010 : 03:29:14

Leon, thanks for the good read, that was funny.

So... I found new fuse holders, after visiting ACK. It is the kind of place where the long counter has probably heard that debate many, many times. I may get the chance to change out the holders on the panel this weekend.

Catalina's crimps, without heatshrink lasted longer that the fuse holder, so I'd guess one connection method lasts 30 years, another 32.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/09/2010 : 05:52:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Leon Sisson
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
...An interesting thread on solder verses crimp:
[[url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/40595-crimping-versus-soldering.html"]Crimped vs. Soldered Boat Wiring[/url]]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Did you have to go and do that?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Why do I sense a NASA employee in our midst? Jeesh!

Yes, I felt some wind go out of my sails after reading that thread. I've always taken pride in my solder work - even going the extra mile to obtain adhesive lined shrink tubing. A contributor (or two) to the blog are professional boatyard technicians who maintain trans-ocean yachts whose owners demand nothing but the very best products and techniques.

Kind of makes novices (like me) look more novice!

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 07/09/2010 : 06:10:31

Ray,

Wow, just checked the Ack website, what a place. Love to find someplace like that near me.

For what it's worth, I crimp using heat shrink fittings. After seeing what Catalina did 26 years ago, that is an upgrade.

tom

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/09/2010 : 06:33:18

http://shop.genuinedealz.com/

TOM, thanks for the genuine deals supplier. ACK is not marine grade, but has some other things that are harder to find.

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 07/09/2010 : 13:36:53

Ray,
I have no complaints about genuine dealz products or customer service (or price). Great stuff, great price, and a small business. I tell anyone who will listen to me about them. (no I am not an owner...)
tom

Edited by - TCurran on 07/09/2010 13:41:43

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2010 : 15:42:14

I think it was in Don Casey's Sailboat Electrics Simplified that I learned the "right" way to crip--it was not exactly what I'd been doing...

To other novices, I recommend reading up on the process before assuming it's obvious.

After a sail on the Pacific on somebody else's boat, with acrid smoke billowing (not a "thin trail") out of the galley cabinet, I have a special appreciation for the dangers from chafing of 12V wiring.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 03:37:37

A fuse holder was broken, and the wire was so old it bothered me, so I rebuilt the electrical board, using the old switches and adding 5 new fuse holders.
.
Before:

.
After
.

Now I'm going wild thinking about adding lighted paddle switches ( Oh hold me back ), but I'm sure I'll come to my senses.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 06:17:11

I wired 16 guage in the panel, as the hot "buss" for the fuse holders had me connecting 2 wires per crimp and the blue crimps held the 2 lines of 16 well. Catalina had used 16 gauge. For the hot and ground wire to the front bow light I'm going to add I'll wire 14 gauge.
.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 07:11:39

Ray, knowing how we tend to add things that increase the load on the electrical system, I have to ask.... what is the total ampage on the supply when all devices controlled via the panel are in use?

Paul

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 07:45:07

That is a good question.

The anchor light is out, the steaming light is out, the front and back nav lights are 1 amps each, and the accessory plugs (2) are for a cell phone and I don't yet know what they draw. The 13 led lights are about .06 amps each.. So I think I could almost put everything on one circuit. I'm starting fresh from the battery so I have not finished the runs. Right now it looks like about 5 amps.

No big loads yet, and I'm being careful not to add any.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 08:21:18

Our original cabin lights drew 1+ amps each, the Festoon lamps are pretty close.
Some lights are exclusive (normally) eg. Running lights and Anchor lights.
We have the nav lights, electric bilge pump, VHF Radio, Cabin Radio/CD player, compass light (led) ST40 Displays and transducers (Wind, Depth, Temp, Speed), phone chargers, netbook charger, ballast airpump. Oh! and our 15" DTV

That about covers it.
Just mentioning in case you forgot anything.

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 07/12/2010 08:21:45

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