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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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swing keel tall rig

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banjoman
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/12/2010 : 16:46:29

I'm looking at buying a swing keel tall rig and was wondering if I could get any input on this boat. Cat 25/1981 model. How does she sail? Any issues I should know about w/ this design/combination? How easy to raise mast? Any information would help.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 17:48:08

Except for a few design changes, it should not be much different from sailing our 1984 tall rig with a swing keel. How does she sail, compared to what? It's a fairly easy boat to sail, even single-handed. compared to a standard rig, the tall rig configuration has 25 sq. ft. more sail area, the mast is 2 ft. taller and heavier and the boom rides a foot lower than a standard rig. The outboard on the 81 model will likely be on the port side of the transom, and the storage locker on the port side has a shelf at the stern for the o/b gas tank. Beginning sometime in 1982 that space was converted to a separate fuel locker venting to the cockpit, separated from the rest of that storage space, and the o/b motor was moved to the starboard side. Hull shape and sail controls are the same.
The tall rig was introduced to benefit sailors in light air, generally inland, areas of the country, while the guys on the coast, and those who trailer their boats, tend to prefer the standard rig.
I occasionally single-hand our boat, but usually only in mild weather.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 18:21:59

I singlehand Pearl fairly often, and I sometimes singlehand the mast raising with a 2x4 A-frame. Easy to sail, forgiving, and a great compromise of features. Annual inspection of the keel system with appropriate maintenance is an important issue, but it is neither expensive nor difficult. Check around the pivot assembly for cracks, leaks, or more extensive damage that can come from a poorly maintained keel cable breaking.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 07/12/2010 18:28:35

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 18:56:58

Banjoman,

I have an '82 TR/SK. A couple of observations and few pros and cons:

The Tall Rig was designed, as DavidP says, for the lighter winds of inland sailing. The bigger sail area you will use on those light air days comes at a cost. The biggest cost is the lower boom height over the cockpit. This makes it a potential head-knocker and really makes it hard to put up a bimini. If your sailing location is hot during the summer, a purchase of shade is a wonderful commodity underway... not having a bimini has kept me at the dock for much of this unusually hot summer here on the Chesapeake. The other point is reefing. You'll probably want two sets of reefing points and will want to reef earlier than if you had a Standard rig.

As for the mast, I've lowered and raised mine by myself, but you'll need a gin pole or A-frame. I really doubt you could safely man-handle the mast without mechanical advantage, even with three or four helpers. The mast is only two feet longer than the SR, but is a completely different (and much thicker) extrusion and is therefore quite a bit heavier. I built an A-frame from the tech tips section here and it has worked flawlessly. If you plan on dropping the mast regularly (i.e. for trailering), an A-frame or gin pole is a must.

There are volumes of tips, discussions, debates, repairs, "there I was"'s regarding the swing keel on this forum. Search and read to your heart's content. I would much prefer a Wing keel, but they are more expensive and harder to find. If you plan on keeping your boat in the water and you're not sailing in shallow water often, a fin is a great choice. If you plan to trailer or, as in my case, gunkhole shallow areas, a swing keel offers great flexibility. The swing keel, due to its mechanical raising and lowering system, requires some periodic maintenance. And things can go wrong without warning, like a broken cable or winch brake resulting in a free-fall of a 3/4 ton hunk of cast iron. When it stops suddenly at the top of the keel trunk, it is likely your bottom will suffer damage... and so will your boats'.

I've rigged my boat for single-handing it's been more than worth the cost and effort. If the boat you're looking at is so rigged, I think that is point in her favor.

Overall, the C25 TR/SK is what it is: a good, solid boat that Frank Butler sold thousands of with a loyal following. My boat is very dependable and comfortable. It doesn't point as well as a J-boat and isn't finished below like an Island Packet. It's a Catalina and it represents, to me anyway, value. Let me know if you have any specific question about the TR/SK. Good luck!

Edited by - on

banjoman
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 20:45:57

Thanks for your input. The fact the boom rides a foot lower does concern me as I would like a bimini.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 05:38:48

We have a bimini on our tall rig, transferred it from our C-22. It is possible, however headroom will be a bit limited under the bimini. If you buy the boat, I recommend mounting the bimini on the coaming on tracks that can be ordered with the bimini. Our bimini has a 36" height, mounted on the deck outside the coaming and it just barely fits below the boom. So, one mounted on the coaming will need to be that much shorter, probably about 30-32". You'll also need to measure the distance across the cockpit from coaming to coaming midpoint.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 13:58:27

Go to the Tech Tips, click on C25 tips, and click on the bimini. You'll see there my solution for a TR bimini. Just one idea.

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banjoman
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 14:06:48

Thanks,

Now I'm wondering if I should hold out and find a wing keel. Everyone seems to wish they had one instead of the swing?

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superbob
Navigator

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USA
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 14:17:57

If you're going to trailer your boat a lot then I'd suggest going swing keel for ease of launch and retrieval. Having been there and done both model boats, you'll not regret the swing if you plan on a lot of in and out boating.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 17:47:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by banjoman
 Thanks,

Now I'm wondering if I should hold out and find a wing keel. Everyone seems to wish they had one instead of the swing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes! No keel maintenance beyond paint every couple of years.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 18:59:46

FWIW, our 1981 C25, hull #2428, had the starboard mounted motor bracket and external fuel locker.

We plan to replace our current tall rig main sail with a Capri 25 sail as it is shorter. This will allow us to move the boom up to about the same height as a standard rig.

Good luck!

Edited by - OJ on 07/13/2010 19:04:56

banjoman
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 19:15:56

How big of a job is it to move the boom up?

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 19:59:50

If the boom on the boat you are considering has a gooseneck (the fitting on the mast end of the boom) that slides up and down in the slot on the mast, you won't have any problem moving the boom. with the main sail fully raised, the boom should be situated just below the slot opening on the mast. On boats with a fixed boom, the gooseneck fitting is screwed into the mast and doesn't move.

Edited by - on

Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

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USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2010 : 07:46:44

My 83 standard swing keel is a great sail!!
The lower boom would be the issue, on the tall rig, I would consider. The extra sail area might not be worth the tall rig. I day sail, and if you keep the unnecessary junk onboard to a minimium these boats are very responsive. I have a bimini that is fitted to the deck and the clearance is go to the boom. The swing keel is a bit of maintance, but a good choice if the marina or launch site is shallow at low tide.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2010 : 11:19:29

The only advantage of the wing is no maintenance. The swing requires an annual inspection of the lift system; the cable, turning ball, an rarely, cable to keel attachment needs replacement every few years. The pivot assembly is pretty much bullet proof, so it isn't a problem if it is in good shape to start with; if it isn't good initially, it will require a day and $100 - $200 to bring it up to spec and it will be good for decades. The advantage s of the swing over the wing are significantly better windward performance, easier trailer launching/recovery, and the ability to get free of a grounding easily. I have no desire to go for a wing for a trailerable boat. I am, however, looking pretty seriously at a shoal draft C-30.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2010 : 14:28:26

I think that if you're taller than around 5'6", you'll regret getting a tall rig/bimini combination. Of course, you can sacrifice sail shape to accomodate a standard bimini. You can raise the boom and put on a standard luff mainsail but, that raises the center of effort of the sail 2 feet. Probably not the best solution. Unless you really need the tall rig for a very light wind area of the country I'd avoid it like the plague. The C25 Tall Rig is a terrific boat but why increase the "hassle factor" if you don't need to?

If you're considering holding out for a wing keel, I'd do that. An '89 wing keel is said to be the creme of the C25 crop. Some will say that it doesn't point as well as a fin, I don't know but, that's probably only an issue if you are a serious racer. The drawback, is that the a wing keel really is NOT a trailer sailor. It is simply transportable on a trailer. For that matter, I wouldn't consider a tall rig a trailer sailor either due to the increase difficulty of raising the longer, heavier mast.

Keep looking.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 07/17/2010 : 18:37:55

I wouldn't consider any of the C-25s trailer sailors, but I don't know about the 250s. It takes me 1 1/2 - 2 hours to launch and rig, and longer to get road worthy at haul out. It would be faster with hank on jibs and leaving the main on the boom, but it is still a lot of work. Raising a TR mast takes no longer than an SR with a proper A-frame and the rest of the process is the same, so I wouldn't expect a time savings with an SR.

edit:

I also agree with John that if you are considering going for a wing, you might be wise to keep looking. I have always been happy with swingers, but they aren't for everybody. Also, the flat floor would be nice. I got a TR because the price and timing were right, but I would have been just as happy with an SR.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 07/17/2010 18:48:25

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 04:56:40

Raising the boom is no big deal - simply unscrew the gooseneck and move it. I will probaly use ss pop rivets to reattach ours.
Yep, wings are nice but rare - Catalina ony made about 200 of them. We drove 600 miles one-way for ours. It didn't have a trailer so we ordered a new one (as I stated in the Swap Meet, used C25 trailers are way rare.)

Edited by - OJ on 07/18/2010 05:00:44

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 11:19:22

Up until some time in the late 80s (89?), the goosenecks slid up and down in the kerf (sail track). When picking a shorter sail to raise the TR boom, the position of the gooseneck relative to the mast gate (where the slugs and gooseneck feed in) is critical. You do not want the gooseneck escaping, and IMHO, mast gate plates are not sufficient to guarantee it won't.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/18/2010 11:23:19

Sailor Sam
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 14:13:09

Visually, how do you tell a tall rig from a...? Have had oure since 2006, but no idea what it is.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by banjoman
 I'm looking at buying a swing keel tall rig and was wondering if I could get any input on this boat. Cat 25/1981 model. How does she sail? Any issues I should know about w/ this design/combination? How easy to raise mast? Any information would help.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 15:11:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sailor Sam
 Visually, how do you tell a tall rig from a...?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...standard rig? It's been suggested that if you're under 6' tall and standing upright in the cockpit with the sail raised to the top of the mast, if the boom swings over your head, you have a standard rig. If it wants to clock you right in the ear, you probably have a tall.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 17:24:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sailor Sam
 Visually, how do you tell a tall rig from a...? Have had oure since 2006, but no idea what it is.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If you have the original sail bags - there's a "T" stamped/stenciled above the sail #.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 17:29:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Up until some time in the late 80s (89?), the goosenecks slid up and down in the kerf (sail track) . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Dave, not sure about earlier tall rigs but there is no mast gate on our 89 - sort of wishing there was.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 19:46:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 ...there is no mast gate on our 89 - sort of wishing there was.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Huh? How to you get the slugs into or out of the kerf?

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/19/2010 : 05:12:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 ...there is no mast gate on our 89 - sort of wishing there was.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Huh? How to you get the slugs into or out of the kerf?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Oops, there is a mast gate - but not like the one on our previous '81 standard rig. It's not as tall - just large enough to insert the sail slugs or bolt rope.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/19/2010 : 10:05:33

One way to determine if you have a tall rig is to measure the luff of your mainsail. The tall rig main sail luff is a bit over 27 ft. and fully raised the boom will be just below the mast gate. The standard rig main sail luff measures in at a bit over 24 ft. Alternatively, tie a 30 ft tape measure to your main halyard and raise it to the top of your mast. If it measures 28 ft. to the base of the mast, you have a standard rig.

Edited by - dmpilc on 07/19/2010 10:08:44

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