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 C25 rudder position
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OJ
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Initially Posted - 07/25/2010 :  19:13:33  Show Profile
Well, the J24 rudder hardware that came on the new-to-us 89 C25 was installed pretty poorly. When I insert either the lower or upper pin, I can't insert the other without forcing it - which then causes the pintles and gudgeons to really bind.

The DPO also re-installed the rudder a bit low. Does anyone know the dimension of the gap between the aft hull fin and the <i>step</i> about mid-point of the rudder?

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/25/2010 :  20:47:46  Show Profile
I can empathize... When I bought the balanced rudder and "heavy duty" gudgeons from CD, and then mounted the original pintles on the new rudder, my "infinitesimal" error in the alignment of the pintles caused binding in the new gudgeons. So I reverted to the original gudgeons that didn't have the vertical metal sleaves. I have to say I don't subscribe to CD's claim that the "heavy duty" gudgeons are advisable. The little knee braces are silly, given that the balanced rudder actually wants to float off the gudgeons! The nylon bushings are nice, but can be replicated in the original gudgeons--from a local hardware store (if you still have such a thing).

As for the gap between the rudder step and the skeg, I mounted my rudder perhaps a little lower than the designed intent, so the gap was maybe an inch--I don't recall exactly. Some would say that's an invitation to capturing a lobster pot warp, but I was thinking it might make it easier to free when that happened... Who knows--it didn't happen.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/25/2010 20:56:12
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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/26/2010 :  07:32:31  Show Profile
Dave, I'm removing all four gudgeons and filling all the holes in the transom, i.e., starting over. Going to obtain a 1/2" rod long enough to align gudgeons and pintles simultaneously. Will even butter the back of each gudgeon with an epoxy filler to compensate for any unevenness in the transom. Unfun job but it will be much stronger than the original.

This boat spent much of its life on Lake Champlain which I am told can get pretty rough. Perhaps this hardware is evidence of that!

Thanks for the guesstimate on the distance between the step and the <i>skeg</i>, I concur.

Here's the hardware:

http://schaeferhardware.com//SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=234

Will try to photograph this fix.

Edited by - OJ on 07/26/2010 07:35:52
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tbosch
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Response Posted - 07/27/2010 :  11:08:40  Show Profile
OJ,

I've got about a half inch gap between the skeg and step on my balanced rudder. I like your idea of using the rod to line things up. I have a hard time with getting things square on a boat. Nothing is level while you are doing the work. How will you mark your center line? The middle of the skeg is easy to find. What will you use as a reference for the top end of your vertical center line?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stinkpotter</i>
<br />... The nylon bushings are nice, but can be replicated in the original gudgeons--from a local hardware store (if you still have such a thing)...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

I am interested in how you added bushings to the original gudgeons. Can you tell me more or attach a photo?

I notice the slop a little bit when sailing but I really notice it at night. Clunk... clunk... clunk... Maybe there are other ways to quiet the rudder when at anchor. Ideas welcome...

Thanks!

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2010 :  13:06:38  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tbosch</i>
<br />Dave, I am interested in how you added bushings to the original gudgeons. Can you tell me more or attach a photo?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sorry... I never felt the need, but I found some bushings with flanges in a hardware store way back when, and would have drilled out the existing gudgeons to their OD. But I didn't.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/27/2010 :  13:32:15  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tbosch</i>
<br />. . . I really notice it at night. Clunk... clunk... clunk... Maybe there are other ways to quiet the rudder when at anchor. Ideas welcome . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Todd, we used to stuff a large sponge between the transom and the rudder. We also tied the tiller which kept the sponge from falling out!

Edited by - OJ on 07/27/2010 13:35:42
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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/27/2010 :  13:53:34  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tbosch</i>
<br />How will you mark your center line? The middle of the skeg is easy to find. What will you use as a reference for the top end of your vertical center line?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Yep, these are the things that keep me awake at night. The driveway is not level and even if it was the boat may well not be sitting level on the trailer. Unless someone suggests a better method (which I would certainly welcome!) I'm going to measure from each side to mark the upper center point. Will probably butter the backs of the gudgeons with Marine-Tex instead of an epoxy filler - tightening the bolts about 90% until cured.

Edited by - OJ on 07/27/2010 13:55:00
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2010 :  21:05:22  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by OJ</i>
<br />[quote]<i>Originally posted by tbosch</i>
<br />How will you mark your center line?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'd draw a line from the center of the skeg up to the midpoint between the sides of the hull at the rubrails. That's probably what they did at the factory.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/28/2010 :  13:18:36  Show Profile
As Dave Bristle would say - Murphy's 9th corollary . . . Home Depot and Lowes both have hole saws in 1/8" increments up to 3 5/8" then skip to 4". I needed 3 3/4" . . . go figure.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 :  06:08:32  Show Profile
I purchased a steel rod to check the alignment of the gudgeons - just to see how far out they were:



Do you think is the reason for the binding?

Edited by - OJ on 08/02/2010 13:56:43
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 :  07:26:05  Show Profile
Yikes! It's hard enough to get two of those "sleeved" gudgeons to line up perfectly--do you have four there--two for each pintle? Then, if you get them all aligned, there's the issue of the alignment of the pintles to slide into all four... trickier than one might think. IMHO, that system is over-engineered. With a modest backing plate, the two original gudgeons provided plenty of strength, and each one probably spreads the load on the transom better than one of those things you have--which might be why the P.O. used them in pairs.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 :  05:37:39  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stinkpotter</i>
<br />. . . do you have four there--two for each pintle? Then, if you get them all aligned, there's the issue of the alignment of the pintles to slide into all four . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Yes, four gudgeons to align + the 2 pintles. Schaeffer said using the steel bar to align everything at the same time is more than what most people use. I can't imagine doing anything less!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">With a modest backing plate, the two original gudgeons provided plenty of strength, and each one probably spreads the load on the transom better than one of those things you have--which might be why the P.O. used them in pairs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Something must have happened to cause the previous owner to install this hardware - as these pieces cost several hundred dollars.


Edited by - OJ on 08/02/2010 11:25:57
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2010 :  12:19:18  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by OJ</i>
<br />...Schaeffer said using the steel bar to align everything at the same time is more than what most people use. I can't imagine doing anything less!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nor can I. You want the pintles to be "snug" in the gudgeons to minimize vibration and clunking. That means their OD should match up very closely to the ID of the gudgeons--not much margin for alignment error. In fact, maybe instead of a steel rod (which assumes your pintles are <i>perfectly</i> aligned), you should use the rudder itself to align the gudgeons. It's probably a 2-man job, but... I'd probably mount the one top gudgeon, and then use the rudder to align the other three.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/02/2010 12:25:24
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OJ
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 :  13:53:17  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stinkpotter</i>
<br />[quote]<i>Originally posted by OJ</i>
<br />In fact, maybe instead of a steel rod . . . you should use the rudder itself to align the gudgeons.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">LOL, I tried passing the rod through the straps on the rudder (this hardware is more like a door hinge than gudgeons and pintles) and, of course, these straps are not aligned either - hah! So, <i>all</i> the hardware is coming off and <i>all</i> the old holes are being filled. Will mount the four transom straps using the rudder straps as spacers, then position the rudder and drill new holes. My only fear is if the rudder head is slightly bowed - it will throw my perfect alignment out of wack once I tighten the bolts that pass through it!

Found a local company that will make 4 stainless backing plates for only $3 a piece!

The 4" inspection plate looks like it will give me just enough space to work on the upper gudgeons.

As for bedding with Marine-Tex, I suppose masking around the gudgeons is an effective way to keep from turning the transom into a mess.

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djdurrett
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 :  14:03:17  Show Profile
I know what you mean about the clunking and trying to sleep. My gudgeons are worn and there is some play. The best remedy I found while trying to sleep in the quarter berth is to wake up at about 3 am, hit your head on the cabin sole, storm out to the cockpit, remove the ring-ding and yank the rudder out of the gudgens and lay it in the floor of the cockpit. That works better than tying life jackets and an elaborate web of traveler and main sheet lines to try to stabilize the tiller... works for me anyway! LOL

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