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Permanent Gas Tank

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tbosch
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Initially Posted - 07/31/2010 : 10:58:50

A while ago I posted questions related to installing a permanent gas tank in my 1980 Cat 25. There were some great suggestions and some past projects that I referred to on other member's websites. A very useful suggestion was passed along by HappyD, which was to study and follow the USCG guidelines for boat manufacturers. These can be found here: http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boat_builders_handbook_and_regulations.aspx. I followed that advice.

The tank has been through a half season of use and it is working out great! No more gas fumes in the boat. The dumpster is cleaner and more organized. And I now have a fuel/water separator, which has also been a recent topic of discussion.

The main reasons I started this project in the first place was to get rid of the gas smell that was sometimes evident in the cabin and to increase our range. We sail on Lake Superior and want to do some 1 or 2 week cruises. Having the capacity to cover a long distance, if necessary, is reassuring.

I've attached a few photos of the finished project, in case anyone is interested.

Finished install. 12-gallon tank. Electric panel sealed. Tank vented through transom. The wire nuts in the upper left are for speaker wires. I plan to tape them up. The most challenging part of the install was building and mounting the shelf that the tank sits on.

Racor fuel filter and water separator. I added a mounting board for the filter and storage hooks. I hang my fenders from these.

I put a mounting board and hooks on the other side, too. keeps the cushions handy.

Old gas tank location now has a milk crate for keeping things handy.

This is a big improvement over the factory installation from both a safety and convenience perspective. I am really pleased with how it turned out.

Todd
1980 C25 SR/FK "Dora"

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/31/2010 : 12:15:38

I assume the dryer vent hose is for venting the locker. Is there any requirement to have a power vent system for a permanently installed tank?

Did you go from a 3 gallon tank? Any issues with the additional weight?

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tbosch
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Response Posted - 07/31/2010 : 12:43:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I assume the dryer vent hose is for venting the locker. Is there any requirement to have a power vent system for a permanently installed tank?

Did you go from a 3 gallon tank? Any issues with the additional weight?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The vent hose is basically the same as the original install. The one coming in from the top is attached to the forward-facing cowl. There is another hose that sits in the lowest part of the dumpster that is attached to the aft facing cowl. As long as there is any breeze or the boat is moving there is ventilation happening. I believe that powered ventilation, like a bilge blower, is only required if the engine is enclosed in the space. There are no fumes in the dumpster. The tank has a vent hose that terminates on the transom. If I smell gas then I've got a leaky fitting somewhere. So far no leaks. I used a liquid gasket compound on all of my threaded and barbed fittings and hose clamps that are smooth on the inside so they clamp evenly and don't pucker the hoses.

I went from a 6 gallon tank to 12. I haven't really noticed a weight balance issue. I think the affect of the weight increase was minimized because I went from 6 gallons high in the aft outboard corner of the boat to 12 gallons much lower, farther forward and closer to the center line.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/31/2010 : 13:23:02

Thanks, Todd. Great job!

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mlg3733
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Response Posted - 07/31/2010 : 13:24:44

Nicely done.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 07/31/2010 : 15:15:48

I'll still use my two threes, but that is a slick installation.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 07/31/2010 : 16:34:47

Very nicely done! Do you have a fuel gauge anyplace, or do you just look at the tank?

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 07/31/2010 : 19:29:25

Excellent job.
Maybe I missed it, but how did you mount the fuel fill tube? Inside the cockpit or outside?

I see the red and white hose in the dumpster, but can't tell where it hooks up outside.

Edited by - Voyager on 07/31/2010 19:32:49

jerlim
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 05:20:33

A really handsome install! I was just wondering if there is any concern, as ventilation is passive, of having the tank adjacent to the power panel and fumes? I see the grey box, so I guess that should capture any (unlikely) sparks...but as we know, big problems are typically a cumulative result to a collection of multiple small conditions...just wondering...

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tbosch
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 05:37:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Very nicely done! Do you have a fuel gauge anyplace, or do you just look at the tank?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks! I do have a gauge. I temporarily mounted it in the galley near the breaker panel. I plan to install one of those storage inserts in the backrest of the port cockpit seat and will install the gauge inside it. When the tank is being filled I keep a visual on the tank.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 07:05:08

A well executed vision.

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tbosch
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 07:21:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Excellent job.
Maybe I missed it, but how did you mount the fuel fill tube? Inside the cockpit or outside?

I see the red and white hose in the dumpster, but can't tell where it hooks up outside.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't have a picture of the deck fill. If I remember to take one next weekend I'll update this post.

I installed the fill on the coaming between the winch and the cleat. This is the one aspect of the install that I feel that I made a compromise. The deck fill should go outboard of the coaming somewhere to prevent any overflow from getting into the cockpit. The "best" position I could find to install the fill was on the side deck adjacent to the galley area. That would have brought the fill pipe in through the galley. I didn't like that for several reasons including aesthetics, loss of galley storage space and the route would have had a couple of 90 degree bends in it. The fill hose is extremely stiff and difficult to bend/route. I also thought that a couple of severe bends could impede fuel flow and cause splash back. I'm not sure if that would happen or not.

Having the fill where I put it made for a pretty straight shot into the top of the tank. But, having on top of the coaming gives more opportunity for an overflow to get into the cockpit. The coaming is sloped slightly outboard but not enough if there was a real gusher during the filling process. I mitigate that risk by observing the tank during the filling process. I leave a bit of head room in the tank and I let the pump operator know when to start slowing down. I've been to the fuel dock twice now and so far no issues. Accidents do happen, though, so I still keep something absorbent close by during the process.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 07:29:15

At our fuel dock,and I assume others, the pump spout surrounded by a ring of that absorbent material they make fuel spill booms out of. Maybe you could make some kind of collar that could sit around the fill inlet during refuel. Maybe weight it down with some lead pellets or even sand/gravel?

Edited by - on

tbosch
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 07:55:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 ... I was just wondering if there is any concern, as ventilation is passive, of having the tank adjacent to the power panel and fumes? I see the grey box, so I guess that should capture any (unlikely) sparks...but as we know, big problems are typically a cumulative result to a collection of multiple small conditions...just wondering...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This comes up often and I gave it a lot of thought. Opinions may differ but here is my $.02.
- The old outboard tank vented into the dumpster (cap vent). The power panel was uncovered. The boat survived 30 years this way. I haven't heard of other Cat 25s blowing up but that doesn't mean that they can't. This was one of the reasons that I did this project.
- The new install is better. The tank vents outside the dumpster so there are no fumes inside anymore. The tank, hoses, fittings, etc. are made specifically to be fuel and vapor impermeable. I also enclosed the electric panel.
- The "passive" ventilation is really pretty active. The ventilation is happening 24x7, unless it is dead calm. If I had a powered ventilation system I would not leave it running all the time. Only for brief periods when I was at the boat. I'm 200 miles away from my boat right now and the ventilation is happening all by itself.
- Had I not done this project, my boat would have been at bigger risk.

If you can keep fumes out of the boat in the first place then there will be none to vent!

Edited by - on

tbosch
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 08:01:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 At our fuel dock,and I assume others, the pump spout surrounded by a ring of that absorbent material they make fuel spill booms out of. Maybe you could make some kind of collar that could sit around the fill inlet during refuel. Maybe weight it down with some lead pellets or even sand/gravel?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Great idea! I will do that.

Edited by - on

Happy D
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 08:52:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I installed the fill on the coaming between the winch and the cleat. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I put mine on the little sloped area just in front of the winch. Puts it outboard of the coaming and outside the boat.

Mine is a combo fill and vent andgled at 45 deg and it points directly at the tank, much like yours.

I called the company and asked to buy the pressure test fitting. They sent it free of charge, no questions.
When I'm all done, I'll test it to 3 psi per the CG instructions.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 13:52:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tbosch
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 ... I was just wondering if there is any concern, as ventilation is passive, of having the tank adjacent to the power panel and fumes? I see the grey box, so I guess that should capture any (unlikely) sparks...but as we know, big problems are typically a cumulative result to a collection of multiple small conditions...just wondering...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This comes up often and I gave it a lot of thought. Opinions may differ but here is my $.02.
- The old outboard tank vented into the dumpster (cap vent). The power panel was uncovered. The boat survived 30 years this way. I haven't heard of other Cat 25s blowing up but that doesn't mean that they can't. This was one of the reasons that I did this project.
- The new install is better. The tank vents outside the dumpster so there are no fumes inside anymore. The tank, hoses, fittings, etc. are made specifically to be fuel and vapor impermeable. I also enclosed the electric panel.
- The "passive" ventilation is really pretty active. The ventilation is happening 24x7, unless it is dead calm. If I had a powered ventilation system I would not leave it running all the time. Only for brief periods when I was at the boat. I'm 200 miles away from my boat right now and the ventilation is happening all by itself.
- Had I not done this project, my boat would have been at bigger risk.

If you can keep fumes out of the boat in the first place then there will be none to vent!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's a good concept, but there are going to be days with no wind. The most important safety aspect is to assure that the area where fumes "could" occur be ignition protected. Just 'cuz your installation is new doesn't mean it can't/won't couldn't happen. I strongly urge you to reread the guidelines you quoted in your first post and find a way to really separate your new tank and AND & ALL electrical sparks that could occur. You may be aware that bilge blowers are installed on almost every single gasoline powered craft. Those blowers are ignition protected, meaning the motors don't spark, 'cuz they're designed to move gas fumes.

I think your installation is quite nice, but has a grave potential for a big bang somewhere down the line.

This is not a case of my oft repeated mantra of "Your boat, your choice." It's a case of "you got a good start, but it ain't finished yet."

Good luck, nice work.

Edited by - on

tbosch
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Response Posted - 08/01/2010 : 15:39:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34

That's a good concept, but there are going to be days with no wind. The most important safety aspect is to assure that the area where fumes "could" occur be ignition protected. Just 'cuz your installation is new doesn't mean it can't/won't couldn't happen. I strongly urge you to reread the guidelines you quoted in your first post and find a way to really separate your new tank and AND & ALL electrical sparks that could occur. You may be aware that bilge blowers are installed on almost every single gasoline powered craft. Those blowers are ignition protected, meaning the motors don't spark, 'cuz they're designed to move gas fumes.

I think your installation is quite nice, but has a grave potential for a big bang somewhere down the line.

This is not a case of my oft repeated mantra of "Your boat, your choice." It's a case of "you got a good start, but it ain't finished yet."

Good luck, nice work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Stu,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm wondering, though, in what ways you see the new installation being more dangerous than the factory install? And bilge blowers are installed because of the engine, not the fuel tank.

I clipped the following from the regs. You will see that powered ventilation is required if there is an engine in the compartment:

183.610 Powered ventilation system.
(a) Each compartment in a boat that has a permanently installed gasoline engine with a cranking motor must:
(1) Be open to the atmosphere, or
(2) Be ventilated by an exhaust blower system.

There must be an exhaust blower system installed to ventilate the compartment in which the engine is installed.

TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW
• Is there a gasoline engine permanently installed in the compartment?
• Does the gasoline engine have a cranking motor (starter)?
If you have answered NO to either of the above, see 182.620, Natural Ventilation.
If you have answered YES to both of the above, then you must answer YES to one of the following:
• Is the compartment open to the atmosphere? See 183.605 for requirement.
• Is there an exhaust blower system? See 183.610, (b) through (f), for requirements.

183.620 Natural ventilation system.
(a) Except for compartments open to the atmosphere, a natural ventilation system that meets the requirements of Sec. 183.630 must be provided for each compartment in a boat that:
(3) Contains a permanently installed fuel tank and an electrical
component that is not ignition protected in accordance with Sec.
183.410(a).

Natural ventilation is a term applied to the provisions of air flow inside a compartment that is induced by non-powered means; i.e. ducts, louvers, clamshells, etc.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 10:47:43

Todd,

Very nice installation.

Nice to see another Lake Superior sailer here. I'm in Houghton, Michigan......about a 10-12 hour sail to Ashland. Perhaps we could meet sometime.

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glen
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 10:54:25

Great job Todd, my 79 like yours also had that brilliant engineering system of venting into the dumpster. My fix was not as involved as yours, but has served me well for many years. What I did was to add a separate gas line connection to the portable tank. This was installer at the top of the tank and acts as a vent connection. I have a Honda OB so I used a OMC connection for the vent, this way they can’t be reversed when I’m installing them. I used approved gas line from that connection to an exterior vent I installed, and the factory vent on the portable tank remains closed. I’m sure like you taking action to have the fumes flow to the exterior instead of the interior (dumpster) was a grave mistake.

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tbosch
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 11:12:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart

Nice to see another Lake Superior sailer here. I'm in Houghton, Michigan......about a 10-12 hour sail to Ashland. Perhaps we could meet sometime.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Al,

It would be fun to meet up some time. We had planned to make it to Black River some time this summer but those plans, and the week of vacation, went by the wayside. We might try again next summer. Have you been there? It might be a good halfway point for a get together. If you ever venture to the Apostle Islands, be sure to let me know.

Edited by - on

tbosch
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 11:17:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I installed the fill on the coaming between the winch and the cleat. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I put mine on the little sloped area just in front of the winch. Puts it outboard of the coaming and outside the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That sounds like a better spot. It never occurred to me to consider a spot that wasn't horizontal... Seems obvious now...

Edited by - on

jerlim
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 14:11:01

I guess my thought was triggered by the proximity of the tank to the power panel...at least the portable tanks are as far away from the power panel as possible. I've considered putting the tank into the cockpit, as many already have/do, but am loathe to concede that space, and console myself w/ the belief that if it's worked this well for so many so far, I will be fine too.

Edited by - on

skrenz
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 15:18:03

I remember watching the other day an episode of Myth Busters where they tried to explode a fuel tank. They too reasoned that you needed three things to make things go boom: fuel, air, and a spark. Even so, it was amazingly difficult to get the right combination of enough fuel in the air to cause an explosion. It took a much higher fuel to air ratio than you might think.
Not saying it couldn't happen. Just my .02 worth.

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jerlim
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 15:36:29

hmm...who knew...I feel pretty good they did some testing...on RARE occasions, just a little - ounce or two - of fuel get's spilled when refueling, and runs down into the bottom of the dumpster, the fumes seem strong and we work hard to get it cleaned up and aired out...but are always concerned about a kaboom moment until it's cleared...

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Happy D
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Response Posted - 08/02/2010 : 17:09:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That sounds like a better spot. It never occurred to me to consider a spot that wasn't horizontal... Seems obvious now...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It was originally on the deck and the filler hose went through the power panel bulkhead, right next to the fuses and switches. I thought that was little risky.

You can see it just above the amp and volt meter.

Edited by - on

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