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Rudder lost 10 miles offshore (NEW: pic added)

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windsong
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USA
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Initially Posted - 08/06/2010 : 05:50:33

The pintle bracket on my rudder broke 10nm offshore yesterday in 4-foot seas, 15 kt winds. I was able to get the rudder into the cockpit before the top pintle broke and it took out my steering linkage. The 1/8" thick bracket sheared at the bolt hole where it attaches to the rudder.
This made quite an adventure getting home, but boat and crew did eventually get back to the slip. Kids, don't try this at home. Quite a day.
I did a search in this forum and got no matches on 'broken pintle.'
Is this a known defect? Should I simply replace the part and wait for it to happen again, or is there a more-heavily-engineered solution I should be looking at?
I sail my boat pretty hard, including some offshore trips, so I'm looking for a robust solution.
Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC

Edited by - windsong on 08/08/2010 09:42:19

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 06:53:21

Tell us more about what transpired following the break, and how you got home--I'm assuming iron genny...?

I haven't heard of that one here--I suspect it's a case of "crevice corrosion" inside the stainless, possibly enabled by a flaw in the steel or a stress crack from drilling the hole. I'd put it in the "lightning strikes" file. Other than that, sorry I can't help--I'm not familiar with the C-250 rudder.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/06/2010 06:55:21

windsong
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 07:09:17

OK, more on the aftermath of the failure. BTW, there was no warning, and we were not sailing particularly hard. There was just a mighty BAM, then the sickening sight of the detached rudder.

Dave, The "iron genny" was of no use in those conditions. I had thought we could use the outboard, but we were motoring literally in circles without the rudder. It was almost comical. We threw out a drogue, which helped somewhat, but our VMG was 1 kt and the jetties were 16 nm away. It is possible to steer a rudderless boat with sails alone, I know, but in the deteriorating conditions, that seemed unwise, especially since I would have to get through the rock jetties -- assuming I made it that far -- without a rudder, at night. I radioed Tow Boat USA.
However, the story didn't end there, as the tow itself turned out to be an adventure in its own right. It took them 3 hours to get to us and another 5 hours under tow. Conditions deteriorated to 20kts and 5' seas by the time he got to us. We had out two drogues during the tow and still it was a wild ride. We were broach a number of times with boarding waves. To get us off the ocean more quickly, he took us through Lockwood Folly inlet, which on this day, was a surf zone. No sailor I know has ever been through there. In his rush to get off the ocean, he had underestimated how treacherous the inlet would be, but there was no turning back. He really couldn't control Windsong, and the two makeshift drogues (a 5-gallon gas can and a canvas boat bag) were not sufficient to keep us from going broach in the breakers. In all my life, I never expected to see my monohull in breakers.
We were back in our slip by 10:30 pm. It was quite day, not the one I had planned, but not without its rewards. Though I must say, I felt a little like Abbie Sunderland. On the Intracoastal Waterway under tow, when people ashore waved at me, I didn't wave back, as I usually do. Instead, I pretended I didn't see them.

Edited by - windsong on 08/06/2010 07:41:20

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 07:25:37

Wow, glad you guys got back safe & sound. Did you have any warning, or did it just snap? Since your boat is so new, I'd be talking to Frank Butler about it. Do you have pictures of the failure you could post? I want to take a look at my pintles & gudgeons to see if I see similar damage.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 07:38:58

Very interesting on many fronts -- but most importantly -- so very glad that you and crew are all safe!

While I am not familiar with the 250, it seems to me that most materials are less robust than they once were. I replaced my rudder with a new balanced one a few years ago and in the two weeks between mounting the rudder and launching the boat -- the boat only experiencing rain showers -- the stainless had significant surface rust. The old rudder’s stainless, after 27 years, looked new. The aerospace industry has had similar issues with SOME stainless. Anyway, where I am leading is that it might have just been less desirable metal that over time wore faster than it might have. I am now inspecting all my stainless fittings, hardware etc far more than ever before because of that.

One other area to think through is whether an inadvertent minor accident bent the rudder fittings at all, causing stress on the piece that eventually broke.

Most likely it just “one of those things” but it does cause us all to pause and think about more frequent inspections of critical hardware!

Again, glad it ended safely for you!

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 07:46:10

When they say you need things to always work properly on a boat, they really mean it. I'm glad everyone made it back OK. I'm betting you will end up with the largest bolts on a 250 rudder that have ever been installed.

I can just hear your instructions now, "No, make them Bigger".

Someone said they learned more reading this forum than anything they had done, which is true, but I've always suggested everyone listen to the marine radio at night, say Saturday Night, Labor Day Weekend. You may not learn more, but it will make an impression. Personally, I'd consider it a part of training.

Thank you for telling everyone your story and good luck with those connections.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 07:46:37

I'm glad you're safe, and I agree that you should contact Catalina. But I can't imagine being 10 nm offshore in a C25 or C250. I would want a bigger boat -- with more sturdy fittings.

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windsong
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 07:55:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 I would want a bigger boat -- with more sturdy fittings.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The thought crossed my mind.

Edited by - on

djdurrett
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 07:58:42

Keep a little length of spectra line on board. If the pintle broke but the gudgeon remained, you could (in a pinch) take the pintle bracket off of the rudder and run some line through the rudder then gudeon. Make a few laps with the line and add some oklahoma chrome (duct tape) and it would get you home.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 08:05:37

Dad was offshore, crossing from Apalachicola to Tampa at night, probably around 50 miles offshore with 5 on board and heard something that did not sound right. Found the downwind stay had come apart at the turnbuckle. If he had come around the whole rig would have come down.

Kinda like a pre-flight walk around on a airplane, ya gotta go around and really look at everything.

Have those little bitty cotter pins rusted out on the turnbuckles?

Do the pintles look tight?

Has some juvenile removed a cotter ring from the backstay?

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 08:21:38

DJ Durrett,
That sounds like a good solution. But I wonder if the stainless steel "safety wire" used to secure oil filters, nuts, etc. on aircraft wouldn't be easier to work with and more durable.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/safetywire.php
SAFETY WIRE .041 SS 1 LB.

I keep a few feet of this on my boat. It's a good temporary substitute for cotter keys and other locking pins or rings.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 08:29:56

"DJ Durrett" very intriguing "McGuiver" solution -- have you ever tried it and if so what conditions?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 08:40:53

The sinister thing about stainless steel is that it corrodes from the inside--called "crevice corrosion". It's virtually impossible to detect by eye--only an x-ray can see it, and "rusty" discoloration is not evidence of it. Metal fatigue or stress can promote it--a common example of this is swages on the ends of shrouds, where every little shock load and bending force can fatigue the metal swage fitting itself or the cable inside. The forward bolt hole on a pintle strap is the point of greatest stress on the strap. I wouldn't expect crevice corrosion within the first year in that piece of stainless, but if you want to feel more secure with a standard replacement strap, you might want to add a robust washer or two under the bolt/nut on each side to spread the load.

All of that said, there are many ways a rudder can fail, whether transom-hung or through-the-bottom. I'm surprised you weren't able to control the boat under power without the rudder, but I never tried it with my C-25. I do know that steering with the engine was tiring compared to steering with the rudder under power--it was effective--almost too effective.

Great story! There's a lesson in there about the usefulness of a drogue to control a boat in big seas. But I'm thinking that after all was said and done, the C-250 had proven its fundamental seaworthiness to you that night--even if it did make you yearn for a bigger boat at the time!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/06/2010 08:44:29

djdurrett
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 08:43:14

on a smaller boat, yes. There was allot of "play" in the setup but if you reduce the sail plan and keep an anchor ready, it can get you home. I have seen a bunch of creative fixes over the years. I always keep various scrap lines handy just in case. We broke an upper once on a slownar and imediately tacked to save the rig. We then used the spin halyard to the toe rail to stabilize the rig to get home. In college once we pitch-poled a collegiate 420 in a storm and lost the rudder. We used a cooler lid to steer home. I bet a cooler lid lashed to a removed boom could get you home in the event of a complete rudder loss.

Edited by - djdurrett on 08/06/2010 08:46:32

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 08:55:33

Here's a question for the group: In the event of a broken rudder in dicey conditions where you want to stabilize things and perhaps wait for help, can you get the boat to effectively heave-to without the rudder--jib backwinded and main sheeted out? A possible test would be to try to heave to without tying down the rudder--just let it go free... (I don't have a way to try it right now.) An anchor is another option, although not likely 10 miles out (except on Lake Erie).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/06/2010 08:56:46

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:12:50

Good question -- even under "normal" conditions, at what amount of wind is it too much or not practicle to "heave-to" on a fin keel boat?

Edited by - on

windsong
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:14:26

Good questions, Dave. While we waited, we pulled out a small amount of jib and the boat tacked back and forth on its own, at times backwinded, at times not. It kept us pointed into the waves, which was the key. We drifted 1.5 nm during the time we awaited the tow.
Like you, Dave, I was surpised that I couldn't motor without a rudder. When the pintle first broke, we dropped the sails, locked the steering locknut and motored using the outboard to steer. The rudder was still in the water, banging all around, locked at center position, but it was doable. Then when I could see that we were going to lose the rudder entirely, we removed it, and then the boat simply could not be controlled. Forces on the outboard were huge, and it would start into circles that were difficult to negate. These were rough conditions, admittedly, prop coming in and out of the water, but without the rudder Windsong was a VERY different boat, to say the least. And of course, rudders, when they fail, rarely fail on calm days, so a rudder failure plan should consider that conditions will probably be severe.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:26:04

Mike -- as said earlier you should report this to Catalina. If you have a 2009 boat any repairs should be covered by Catalina plus I would think they would want to know of such a catastrophic hardware failure.

You are so right, things happen in the worst conditions!

Edited by - bigelowp on 08/06/2010 09:29:06

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:30:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Here's a question for the group: In the event of a broken rudder in dicey conditions where you want to stabilize things and perhaps wait for help, can you get the boat to effectively heave-to without the rudder--jib backwinded and main sheeted out? A possible test would be to try to heave to without tying down the rudder--just let it go free... (I don't have a way to try it right now.) An anchor is another option, although not likely 10 miles out (except on Lake Erie).

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was out a while ago and decided to heave-to to watch the sunset before heading in. The bay was empty so I wan't worried about any drift. So, I played around a little with getting her to stop. I've found it more difficult with a 135% headsail than I did with my 110%. The bigger genny just overpowers the main when backwinded. It seems to be trying to force a gybe. NOT a good idea. Anyway I played around for a bit and got the boat to practically stop with the rudder amidships. Watching the swirls off my transom it was obvious that I was making some forward progress as well as sliding to leeward. So, it is possible to heave-to without tying off the rudder to windward. The wind wave and conditions were much milder than described above, however. I had the rudder secured amidships using my "bungee auto-tiller" so that it didn't flop around.

BTW, anchoring 10 miles out in eastern lake Erie may not be very doable. It's pretty deep there. Western Lake Erie is anchorable from Marblehead to Canada.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Good question -- even under "normal" conditions, at what amount of wind is it too much or not practicle to "heave-to" on a fin keel boat?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">One of the safest things to do in big wind and waves is to heave-to. The boat will bob like a cork.

Edited by - John Russell on 08/06/2010 09:33:07

delliottg
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:44:32

In a situation like this, I've thought about using my hatch door lashed to an oar from my dinghy, but after hearing this story realized that wouldn't be the brightest move. Having the hatch board in place would be crucial to crew safety so you wouldn't take on water during a broach, poop, etc. A cooler top is a much better idea, or a fiberglass dinghy seat, or one of the settee hatch boards, or? I also have a 10' spinnaker pole I could use to lash the board to, and I always have a bunch of extra line on board.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 10:05:19

If you can jury rig a rudder, that's preferable, but I believe you can steer a sailboat without a rudder by shifting movable ballast (crew weight) around the boat. I crewed on a Pearson 32 in a race around three buoys in which we were forbidden to use the rudder for steering except in an emergency. We steered the boat and tacked the boat entirely by shifting crew weight, and made it around the course without using the rudder at all. If you're in a pinch, it's worth a try.

Edited by - on

Renzo
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 10:33:37

Had the same thing happen to me when my C-25 was only 3 or 4 years old. pinched and cut a deep gash in one of my fingers getting the rudder loose from the remaining upper pintel and into the cockpit. steered back to the marina using reduced sails and the outboard motor. Contacted Catalina Yachts and was told that they took no responsibility because the manual states that the bolts are supposed to be checked every year. After I removded the broken portion of the boals from the transom I brought them to the metalurgy lab at the company where I worked and ask them if they could determine what caused all three bolts to fail at the same time. After examination the said that the bolts had most likley been over torqued when they were installed. I installed a new pintle with larger diameter bolts (using a torque wrench) and haven't had any trouble for the past 20+ years of racing and heavy weather sailing.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 10:47:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 ...can you get the boat to effectively heave-to without the rudder--jib backwinded and main sheeted out?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was out a while ago and decided to heave-to... Anyway I played around for a bit and got the boat to practically stop with the rudder amidships... I had the rudder secured amidships using my "bungee auto-tiller" so that it didn't flop around.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">However, a rudder held firmly amidships is different from no rudder. I would think a better simulation of no rudder would be an unsecured rudder, letting it flop around wherever it wants to go.

To Peter's question, with an appropriate amount of canvas (like a storm trysail and storm jib), heaving to is a common way to ride out a storm offshore, allowing the crew to rest somewhat comfortably below. But the sails need to be up to the conditions... Our normal canvas might not be... and our boats aren't "blue-water capable" to begin with.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/06/2010 10:47:57

JohnP
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 10:52:29

Not using the rudder is different from not having a rudder, due to rotation around the keel without it.

I have motored in 2-3 ft chop, if I recall, without the bottom half of the rudder, and it was hard to go straight.

(After replacing my rudder I carved a "gondola sweep" out of a 2x8 board with a 9' aluminum pole (Sunfish mast) as a handle. I can paddle the C-25 up to about 1 knot, in calm conditions with this 12' long sweep, while steering with the rudder.)

I keep the 2 parts of the sweep below decks, and I could use it as an emergency rudder. Photos to follow.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 11:15:20

Michael,

A thought about solutions for you -

A few sailors on this forum have installed a 3rd set of gudgeons and pintles to add strength. Maybe that's the simplest solution - 3 or 4 gudgeons to distribute the load.

That might reduce the likelihood of pintle failure, but that doesn't solve the problem of metal fatigue, if that was a factor. And it doesn't add strength to the rudder itself.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 11:19:30

What keeps getting me thinking relates to the conditions. I think in relatively calm waters we all could think through ways to handle a boat with a broken or no rudder. However Mike's situation was at sea -- 10 miles out -- where wave conditions are very different and in deteriorating wind conditions which would push the boat, sails and crew. Our boats are fin keel vessels, which respond well to helm but are not ideal for ocean work in poor conditions. While not near my boat at the moment, I keep thinking about what options to either replicate a workable rudder or better secure to wait for help. Having a drogue (or two) on board suddenly seems like a requirement.

Edited by - on

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Michael Hetzer"Windsong"2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984Myrtle Beach, SC

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC