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Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/15/2010 : 15:30:30

Thanks to the advice of a number of people here, I took the darling wife and kids sailing last Wednesday night. It was the first time for all of us on a sail boat. Also, it was miserably hot here... over 100 degrees. Fortunately as the sun went down, the breeze picked up and was cool(er.)

My wife enjoyed it, but my kids LOVED it. In particular, my older son enjoyed the slower pace, and getting the feel of the boat. The young man who took us out also put us to work.

And now, my wife is rethinking this idea of mine. She likes it, but is not reconsidering whether she wants C-25 with a head, or whether she wants to get something smaller that we can trailer to other lakes with her parents.

So... the project continues. Slowly, but it is going forward!

Howard Warren
Little Rock, AR
1979 C-25 #1435, "Novia"

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2010 : 15:31:50

Sorry, that shoudl say above "she is NOW reconsidering whether she wants C-25 with a head, or whether she wants to get something smaller that we can trailer to other lakes with her parents."

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5368 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2010 : 17:55:23

Howard,
With four or more on board, I'd think that the C-25 might be a wee bit tight, or at least encourage family togetherness. If you were to buy anything smaller (C-22, O'Day 222 or Hunter 22), there might be a tendency for one or more family members to opt out on occasion.

There are a few C25 models capable of being trailered. Swing keel boats are suitable. Of course, a boat and trailer are more costly than a boat alone. And, handling stepping the mast takes skill, practice and several pairs of capable hands.

Edited by - Voyager on 08/15/2010 17:58:09

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2010 : 18:52:47

One consideration is that we will not be spending the night on the boat, just daysailing. Another is that we do not own a vehicle capable of towing the C-25 (grin).

I do not want to trailer it very often, but my wife's parents camp at Greer's Ferry Lake every summer. My wife sees this as a way of combining vacations with them... which is something she has missed a lot. So if stepping down in size to the C-22 gets her to buy in to my ideas, I'm very tempted.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2010 : 19:08:59

IMHO - from what I read of what you've said...all things considered (we are a family of 4 also)...go for the 25' ! ! !

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 08:24:36

How could she...?? Where's the marine head?? Where would you put one--in the center of the cabin? (That'll make an interesting picture when you decide to sell and move up.

)

Buy a C-25 and a 17-18' daysailer with a nice big cockpit--something that's a snap to tow and set up... or a Sunfish--that's about the most pure fun sailing there is!

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 08:29:01

Dave, her idea is to take out the center of the v-berth, plumb in a self-contained, pump out porta-potty and hang a sheet separating the v-berth from the center of the cabin. Peggie Hall even suggested the model of potty to use.

My wife wants to take the sailboat on the road... which absolutely floors me. At first she was NOT in favor of this idea at all, and now she's enthusiastic.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 08:30:47

Stepping and un-stepping the mast on my C-25 was brutal. I can't imagine doing that every time I wanted to sail.

As far as not overnighting how do you know you won't want to do that? It's one of my favorite things about my C-25. I crashed there both Friday and Saturday night after long night sails.

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 08:33:07

Overnighting: I asked my wife that and she said two words: "hot shower."

Maybe Dave is right: two boats.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3462 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 08:58:57

II have sort have been following these posting threads of yours and ..well I may be off-based here but my thought is that if you are new to sailing which I believe one of your earlier postings indicated and considering the type of decisions you are formulating, I think I would not rush into buying a sailboat just yet (not that you are rushing...just that still keep an open mind about some of the things you think you have resolved already for the boat you do buy). I think you somehow have to gain more experience into just how you are going to use the boat, the logistics, etc. For example, you indicated you will only be doing daysailing and overnighters were out of the question because no hot showers. But depending on where you sail initially or maybe at a later time, you may have other marinas in the area where you may want to sail to and spend overnight at them vs anchoring. Marinas that allow transients will generally have bathroom facitlities with hot showers.

Another thing to consider is convenience in going sailing. You indicated you do not have a vehicle to tow a CAT 25 and when you consider towing a sailboat, you have to figure in more than just the weight of the boat. You have to figure in the trailer weight, outboard motor and etc stuff on the boat which then pushes the overall weight from about 4500lbs to something...much greater. Those that have a vehicle that can handle that weight oftentimes store the boat at their house, etc and then tow it to the marina at the beginning of the season and leave it there to the end of the season. There are those that probably tow it to lakes, etc and I guess have gotten use to doing that but it's not everyone's cup of tea for a boat as large as the Cat 25. As was mentioned in the posting thread, lowering and raising the mast (besides the setup involved each time with the stays, etc) is a bear. My own way of thinking is that the more convenient it is to sail, the more use of the sailboat you will make of it. This also goes for how far you have to travel from work or home to the marina if you keep it in one place all season. For example, in my area, the best waters to sail are in the Chesapeake Bay. But that would mean a minimum of 1 hour from work and about 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 hrs from home. That would rule out sailing for most weekdays after work as well as those times when I want to just work on the boat for an hour or two. I would wind up having to sail only on the weekends and sometimes with other things going on or chance of rain/thunderstorms, more lost days of sailing planning would occur. Sailing in the Potomac River is only 5-10 minutes from where I work and about 35 minutes or so from home. I can drop down to the boat for short sails after work or just to do 1-2 hrs of maintenance if I so chose to do. If trailering all the time, you then not only have the driving time but the mast raising and lowering and setup time.

Getting back to the possibility of trailering and sailing, I use to do that back in the days when I owned a 13' banshee with just a main sail and plopping the mast into the hole - no stays. Then when I bought a Luger 16 (built from a kit by a PO), that was heavier (~ 500lbs) and had a mast with stays, main and jib. I kept that at home in the off season and trailered it to the marina for the season. Convenience-wise, I do not think I ever considered trailering that boat on a regular basis - Just too much time for the setup even if much more doable than a larger boat. each person needs to evaluate that convenience vs sail-time for themselves.

The issue with the porta potti pump out....okay, I guess that is the way you will go. So, won't say more about that one.

Just the reading of the postings and then your revelation with family members after your recent sailing....maybe you need to do a bit more sailing before finalizing your decisions. But this is the good time for you. You have so many choices available to you and you are the man with the money. So, you are in control of your own destiny - sailboat decisions. Just that there are many things to think about and just seems like you need a bit more time to formulate your sailboat decision-making.....and come to think about it...I guess that is what you are doing thru these postings. So...it's good news.

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/16/2010 09:07:44

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 09:13:00

Larry, those are excellent points. I probably have not posted clearly, so here are my thoughts on logistics at the moment.

The boat will spend 95% of it's time at Lake Maumelle, which is 15 minutes from my house. Maumelle is a good place to spend a couple of years learning. During warmer months (March ~ October) I will rent a slip on the water and keep the boat ready to go. So going out on Saturday and Sunday (or after work on weeknights) will not be much of a hassle... just pack a picnic and "go".

During winter months, I would prefer to pull the boat from the lake and store it with the mast down. I have a number of places open to me that would allow me low (or no) cost to store. I have a Ford Explorer that can tow a C-22. My father-in-law has a 3/4 ton truck that can tow either the C-22 or the C-25, my cost to "rent" his truck (and him) is a good steak dinner. Stepping the mast would be a bear, but I'm finding tools and accessories online that may help. (Or expand my steak dinner offer for extra "volunteers".)

Orignally, my wife was not in favor of this project, so I did not plan to trailer the boat to another lake for a vacation. I had planned to stay on Lake Maumelle for the next couple of years, learning how to sail properly. But since our excursion, her opinion is changing. Now she is talking about taking the boat to Greers Ferry Lake in order to share a summer vacation with her parents. It may not be possible for her father to tow the C-25 that distance (he's towing a camper), but my wife would prefer to stay in a B&B than on the boat anyway.

So you're right... logistics are important. Also, a major consideration is the condition of the boat. I've been on board one of the C-25s for sail here, and a C-22. There are still two more to look at. But temperatures here have been 100+ and too hot for serious looking. So I'm moving slowly.

Thanks again, everybody!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3462 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 09:32:54

Yeah - It's real hot (and humid) here as well. What's worse is that I just came back from almost a 2 week vacation in the rocky mountians and temps were in the high 60s and low/low humidity. Since coming back, I have been somewhat grumpy and I think the weather has a lot to with that.

Infrequent trailering....okay that sounds good and probably does make it a good sell to your spouse. that sounds doable ! Okay...so maybe you are getting closer to a decision !

Big thing is the condition of the boats and what you desire in the way of this hobby/sport. Some like to just sail and therefore the boat needs to be close to as good as it gets sail-away condition. Others like to get a good buy and as long as the hull and etc main aspects of the boat are solid/very good condition, they look forward to making improvements, etc to the boat. What to inspect for as you get closer to making a decision is another story all by itself and we all have something to say about that...as does every sailor. Personally, I enjoy just crusing around but also working the many projects I have done since owning the boat these past 4 1/2 years. My boat was in very good condition when I bought it but even so, it was not hard sinking a bunch of dough into it. Bought a new outboard, changed the outboard bracket, installed a solar panel, new swithc panel, fans, new table w/shelves, VBerth storage plexiglas enclosure protecting transducers, fishfinder, new sails. I did not have any hull work needed except bottom painting. Next on the list will probably be to change the halyards. All running gear was also changed out.

Happy continued hunting and dialing in the right boat for you and your family.

Larry

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 10:40:27

Perhaps our experience will be helpful. We started out with a Venture 21 after spending a week learning on a 12' ODay daysailer. The venture 21 was a good learning experience, but I wanted something bigger, spend a lot of time asking around and decided on a C25. Its a swing keel with a trailer - and we loved it. I have 6 kids, its a little crowded when all of us are out, but usually I just get a couple of the kids out at a time. We leave it in the lake April-October each year, and take it out once or twice to trailer it to another lake.

Although it can be trailered, it takes a couple hours to do it, so we only take it in and out if we want to go somewhere for several days or more.

However, we do go camping often and want to sail just for a day or two. Usually these trips are up in the mountains. So I looked around on the classifieds and bought a 14' Lido sailboat. Its a fantastic little boat, has a large open cockpit that we can easily fit 4 adults in - or more if the wind isn't too crazy.

Here's the best part: I bought the Lido with trailer for $300. When I got home and went through the sailbags I found $200 in west marine gift cards. I called the seller to see if he knew about them - he did, and intended for them to go with the boat! So my $300 boat now cost $100. Then I sold the spare mast that came with the boat for $150. Free boat!

The Lido is great for sailing small lakes - we don't even need a boat ramp because it can be rolled down into the water by hand. The kids really enjoy sailing the Lido, it gives them that pure sailing experience and is small enough for them to handle all on their own while they are learning to sail. (On our last trip to the mountains the end of July, I got pictures of the kids sailing out on the lake with a bald eagle fishing overhead. I need to get my blog updated...)

I always want a bigger boat though. The Admiral and I went to the BVI earlier this year and sailed a 37' Jenneau for a week and loved it. We came back determined to buy a bigger boat, but a C25 is what works for us on Utah Lake where we live. Plus, bigger boats are too expensive. We settled on the idea that we can afford more bareboating charters if we split the cost with others. So we're going back to the BVI with another couple this winter on a Hunter 44, and then next summer we'll take the older kids down. I'm sure we'll come back with bigger-boat-itis again.

The kids really enjoy sailing, its turned out to be a great hobby for all of us - and particularly for me as a Dad to spend time with my teenagers and their friends. Good luck finding your boat, and I hope you enjoy it as much as we have.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 11:51:14

You know what, Howard? I'm gonna flip-flop. You've got a great thing going here--an enthusiastic spouse! I'd follow her lead on this--the C-22 is a great, roomy daysailer with a cockpit as big as the C-25's, and the cabin will be your head--that's all it needs to be. Tow it where you want... Set it up pretty easily... Have fun! If you decide some year that there are reasons to have a bigger boat, do what many here have done--sell the 22 and buy a ?-??. The C-22 is such a known commodity, you'll probably get what you paid for it. It's not for no reason that Catalina has built over 15,000 of them over 40+ years.

One caveat: See if you can take your gang for a trial sail (with the owner) on the C-22. It's a substantially different animal from the Hunter 260--in some ways more fun, and in some ways a little less secure feeling. It is, however, a very forgiving and safe boat. (Just make sure the keel is down--assuming it's a swinger.)

EDIT: Wait--those pix aren't on a Hunter 260... What was it?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/16/2010 11:57:44

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 11:52:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Unsinkable2
 Perhaps our experience will be helpful. We started out with a Venture 21 after spending a week learning on a 12' ODay daysailer. The venture 21 was a good learning experience, but I wanted something bigger, spend a lot of time asking around and decided on a C25. Its a swing keel with a trailer - and we loved it. I have 6 kids, its a little crowded when all of us are out, but usually I just get a couple of the kids out at a time. We leave it in the lake April-October each year, and take it out once or twice to trailer it to another lake.

Although it can be trailered, it takes a couple hours to do it, so we only take it in and out if we want to go somewhere for several days or more.

However, we do go camping often and want to sail just for a day or two. Usually these trips are up in the mountains. So I looked around on the classifieds and bought a 14' Lido sailboat. Its a fantastic little boat, has a large open cockpit that we can easily fit 4 adults in - or more if the wind isn't too crazy.

Here's the best part: I bought the Lido with trailer for $300. When I got home and went through the sailbags I found $200 in west marine gift cards. I called the seller to see if he knew about them - he did, and intended for them to go with the boat! So my $300 boat now cost $100. Then I sold the spare mast that came with the boat for $150. Free boat!

The Lido is great for sailing small lakes - we don't even need a boat ramp because it can be rolled down into the water by hand. The kids really enjoy sailing the Lido, it gives them that pure sailing experience and is small enough for them to handle all on their own while they are learning to sail. (On our last trip to the mountains the end of July, I got pictures of the kids sailing out on the lake with a bald eagle fishing overhead. I need to get my blog updated...)

I always want a bigger boat though. The Admiral and I went to the BVI earlier this year and sailed a 37' Jenneau for a week and loved it. We came back determined to buy a bigger boat, but a C25 is what works for us on Utah Lake where we live. Plus, bigger boats are too expensive. We settled on the idea that we can afford more bareboating charters if we split the cost with others. So we're going back to the BVI with another couple this winter on a Hunter 44, and then next summer we'll take the older kids down. I'm sure we'll come back with bigger-boat-itis again.

The kids really enjoy sailing, its turned out to be a great hobby for all of us - and particularly for me as a Dad to spend time with my teenagers and their friends. Good luck finding your boat, and I hope you enjoy it as much as we have.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had not sailed for over twenty years when I moved to Texas so to get my chops back I bought a very simple one design called an Escape Captiva. It literally takes only 10 minutes from trailer to sailing and it's a blast to sail but two people max so when we want to go to another lake for camping etc I'll bring it and take everyone out for short runs. For this reason I've kept it, fits in the garage, trailers like a dream and always ready. Just put the mast in the hole and unroll the main sail. No stays or rigging. If I had to do it all over again, I would've held out for a Laser.

As has been said, if a boat is too much work to prep you'll end up sitting on the couch.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 12:44:17

Following your wife's lead is an important consideration, but you really need to spend some time on a 22. We had a CM-21 when the kids were pre-school and it was great for the four of us, but it just didn't work when the kids were elementary school size - taking one friend was too much. Take the previous advice and get the whole crew aboard a 22. If it works for you, then you know where to head. If she is thinking of taking grandpa and grandma out on a 22, I think somebody will stay ashore with the kids. You could probably manage it on a 25 while the kids are young.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2010 : 15:30:41

Before my wife and I bought our C-22 in 1977 (yes, we still have the same boat plus the C-25) she insisted on spending the night on it. That process threw out a San Juan 21 we were also looking at. We arranged with the seller to overnight on the C-22 at the dock. that gave her a taste of what it would be like out in a cove. She was okay with it and we bought the boat.
After what you wrote about day sailing it, I would recommend getting a good C-22, sail it for a while and then decide if you want to move up to a bigger boat. The C-22 will be significantly easier to trailer sail to other locations. Vehicles such as a Pathfinder, Trail Blazer, Isuzu Trooper, Durango, any 1/2 ton pickup, etc. will tow it easily.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2010 : 17:30:00

If you decide to go with a C22 take a look at this 1990 model wing keel. Looks pretty nice. I have no affiliation or other knowledge about this boat. Just stumbled across the ad on Sailing Texas and thought of you.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/scatalina22370.html

Edited by - on

klassi1
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2010 : 19:56:47

Check out this C-22 on Beaver Lake in NW Arkansas. It's at the sail club I belong to and the owner has taken very good care of it. Definitely in sail away condition.

Good Luck.
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=15983&mh=1

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2010 : 20:06:29

Thanks for the links, everybody!

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2010 : 20:42:04

One thing to keep in mind if you do go with a C22. If you try to use the head you'll have to make sure your in the middle of the lake or a secluded cove cause you'll look kind of funny with your head sticking out of the forward hatch. I believe that would be true even if you were on your knees. Not sure how that would work for your wife. Might have to keep a tarp over the front of the boat when using the head!

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2010 : 21:55:46

My wife is all of 4'11"... I think she'll fit... (laughing.)

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 07:22:18

On our C-22, we have a privacy curtain just in front of the mast compression post which has worked well. I'm 5'8" and found that if I needed to only pee, it was easier to use the head if I got on my knees. The admiral is 5'1" and managed okay, I guess. I didn't ask!
If you decide to go with the C-22, be sure to buy one with the pop-top.

Edited by - dmpilc on 08/18/2010 07:24:27

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 07:40:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ...be sure to buy one with the pop-top.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...so you can look around while you're sitting there. (Nobody needs to know.)

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 09:03:28

[url="http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/18664153.jpg"]Nice looking Marina[/url] there at Lake Maumelle!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 10:34:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 [url="http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/18664153.jpg"]Nice looking Marina[/url] there at Lake Maumelle!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and there's a separate sailing club facility with slips.

Edited by - on

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