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Roller Furlers - Which One?

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/11/2010 : 20:57:03

I've got an '89 SR/WK and I'm about ready to install a furler.

I've looked through the archives and found a ton of information on furling sails but didn't find much in the way of comparisons on the furlers themselves.

I will be cruising, not racing and I'm leaning towards the CDI furlers with ball bearings but I like the Harken units too, just not the price difference. My main concern is the ease of swapping sails. The winds in Galveston Bay can vary greatly from one weekend to the next. Another tidbit of information, I will not be trailering much.

Any information on the two furlers, the ease of swapping sails, and who has the best prices would be greatly appreciated? Also, should I buy the accessory installation kits or gather the pieces separately?

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2010 : 23:43:56

Gary, I'm not sure why you can't find plenty of threads on furlers -- there have been a plethora over the years.

Many of us have the CDI FF4 with ball bearing kit. It's inexpensive, durable, and bulletproof. However, it's not built for easy sail changing. I suspect the Harken may be better for that, but since I have a CDI, I'm not sure.

I'm not clear why, if you're cruising, changing sails is a big issue for you. I have a 135% genoa with a foam luff on mine, and there's not been a situation for me over the years when I needed to swap that sail for a different size. I've been in some pretty big winds when I had the sail furled to a relative scrap, and it did fine. If you were in winds -- and seas -- that big you wouldn't want to be on the bow swapping sails anyhow. And in really light air, you need a spinnaker or drifter, not a different sail on the furler. One of the advantages of the CDI is that it uses its own halyard, freeing your jib halyard up for a spinnaker/drifter.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2010 : 06:42:50

Brook is right. You won't be swapping headsails once you have the roller furler. For one thing, it's a total pain with the CDI system. You'll have to tie a messenger onto a halyard not much beefier than shoelace with absolutely no purchase, then drop the sail, attach the halyard, then raise the sail using the messenger, then tying the halyard onto the world's smallest shackle. CDI obviously didn't give too much thought as to how cumbersome this all can be, because they knew that the whole point of the RF is that you no longer have to raise and lower sails.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/12/2010 : 08:37:58

I searched under furlers and found a lot of threads but reading through them they mostly spoke of what size sail someone should go with.

Brooke -- I wasn't planning on changing sails while under way. I would change at the dock before heading out. As I mentioned one week the wind can be blowing 15 - 25 and the next week be 1 - 10. I guess I could just go with the drifter if the winds are light.

Michael -- Can you get the luff tight enough to ahve good sail shape if the halyard is so hard to deal with?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 04/12/2010 : 08:43:06

My Harken is sweet, but Pearl came with it and I don't think I would have spent the extra money since I don't race. A sail change, not that I do it, is simply dropping the sail, starting a new one into the track and hoist away. It also has two tracks, so sail changes would be fairly quick if I had enough halyards. I think you'll find that most of use that don't race will give up some sail shape in exchange for not having to buy and stow additional sails. My 150 makes bulky but tolerable 110 and a decent 135, but I think many suggest going with a 135 and trading some light air advantage for mid and upper range improvements and possible later adding one of the various "gen-aker" type sails.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 04/12/2010 : 16:43:12

Gary, a wind range from 1 to 25 is easily handled by a single sail on a roller furler. 1 knot -- you use the iron genny. 25 knots -- you fly maybe 75 - 100% of a 135% jib, depending on how much, if any, main you're flying. A spinnaker or drifter would NOT go on the furler.

Use the search engine -- "furler" -- "subject only" - check "Archived Posts." There are six pages of postings.

And, yes, you can get the luff plenty tight.

Edited by - Even Chance on 04/12/2010 18:49:54

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 04/12/2010 : 19:20:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A spinnaker or drifter would NOT go on the furler.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Didn't mean that, but I probably should have been specific for a newbie.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2010 : 06:16:54

Thanks for the information.

Edited by - on

Jefffriday
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2010 : 08:50:44

Gary, my boat came with a Seaflex, after several failures just when I needed it (two swivels that the halyard hooks on) I upgraded to the Harkin. Two other C-25's at our club have the harkin, and two others have the CDI. I just did not like the Messenger setup on the CDI. Things get a bit crazy up here in the mountains sometimes, I wanted to know I could get the sail down fast if something else failed. I goet a good price from defender and had good (unfortunately needed) support from Harkin.

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2010 : 08:59:21

I have owned both and if you will change sails then Harken is the one. The messenger set-up on the CDI is totally inappropriate for regular sail changes. While changing sails seems at first to fly in the face of the purpose of a furler it is a wonderful way to have a furler and not suffer the performance hit that comes with a reefed headsail.

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GaryB
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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2010 : 12:43:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 I have owned both and if you will change sails then Harken is the one. The messenger set-up on the CDI is totally inappropriate for regular sail changes. While changing sails seems at first to fly in the face of the purpose of a furler it is a wonderful way to have a furler and not suffer the performance hit that comes with a reefed headsail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thnak you for the input Frank. Other than the issue of changing sails how would you rate the quality and ease of operation of the CDI vs the Harkin?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 10:21:39

The CDI is a mature, well thought out product that saves a halyard and with the ball bearing option is a great furler and adequate reefer, I see no reason to consider anything between the top performing Harken and the price point CDI. Both operate well and the installation of the fairleads and drum line hardware will be the same. The Harken will probably pull a little easier but most "drum" issues have to do with dirt or inappropriate line sizing... and alignment issues.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2010 : 19:39:15

Ok, so I've decided to go with the Harken furler. Which one? The 00AL or the Mark IV? I can't really see that much difference when looking at their literature.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/04/2010 : 20:54:52

Look at Schaeffer also, if you want to be able to change head sails easily. You attach the jib halyard to the top of a swivel car that rides up and down the foil. The sail attaches to the bottom of the swivel car. and you use the jib halyard to raise/lower the sail.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/05/2010 : 20:04:50

I'll check out teh Schaeffer's before I buy.

Thank you!

Edited by - on

djdurrett
Navigator

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124 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 08:51:25

You can get a complete package with the sail for $1,300 here:
http://nationalsail.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=15

You can also take your old sails to a your local loft and have a #6 luff put in for a reasonable price.

If you are cruising I wouldn't worry about different sails... just roll out how much you need depending on the conditions.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:12:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Look at Schaeffer also, if you want to be able to change head sails easily. You attach the jib halyard to the top of a swivel car that rides up and down the foil. The sail attaches to the bottom of the swivel car. and you use the jib halyard to raise/lower the sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How is that different from the others (except CDI)?

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:41:04

It's not. Schaefer and Harken operate similarly, but CDI is very different. I was just giving him another option. My brother has a Schaefer on his Macgregor 26, seems to work well.

Here's a site for comparing systems:
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/category.htm?fno=400&cat=1606&gclid=COyxjMGlpaMCFQgQswodMVv1Uw

Unfortunately, like Harken, the Schaefer unit will be several hundred more dollars than the CDI. My preference would be to go with the CDI FF4 with bearings and a 135 genoa and forget about sail changes.

Edited by - dmpilc on 08/06/2010 09:52:21

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 09:52:30

CDI is less flexible for use and reportedly is not as good when reefing in (holding shape, etc) -- but is servicable. Harken and Schaeffer are supposedly better for sail changes, etc BUT not as good if you trailor sail often and raise/lower the mast frequently. So . . . all are good but it would appear that choose based on you overall boat use. Any sail can be adapted for a furler and depending on where you are buying your sail loft MAY have the best pacakge deal -- ask!

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 13:41:59

Gary,
You have pointed out the disadvantage of the CDI furler, and that is adjusting luff tension with the CDI. You can't do it. I have a small triple block on the sail and another triple block with a cam cleat on the shackle with 1`/8" line that I use to adjust the tension. It's inconvenient but better than nothing.
I never had any luck posting pictures on this website, but I could email one to you if you like.
Frankly I wouldn't buy the CDI for that reason but it came with the boat.
Mike Muchmore
2038 TR/FK

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 14:48:20

I haven't used a Harken, but my Hood furler with an aluminum foil made it just cumbersome enough to raise the sail that I doubt I would have ever changed sails during the season if I had sails to change. My 130 genny rolled down to a 110 without serious degradation in shape, but as I've noted before, I rarely shortened the genny when the wind piped up, and I didn't sail in storm jib conditions.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/06/2010 14:49:11

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2010 : 08:54:44

The question I'm still trying to get an answer to is, what is the difference between the Harken 00AL and the Mark IV? I've looked at the literature and the only thing I think I see that's different is the shape of the extrusion and I'm not even sure about that.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2010 : 09:10:55

Sail Warehouse says this:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The long time industry standard for high performance furling systems has been designed for simplicity and competitive pricing and has been divided into 3 updated products. The MK IV unit is designed for racers and performance oriented sailors and the Cruising line is for the serious offshore cruiser. The Harken MKIII #00 AL is designed for smaller boats with most of the same featueres as the MKIV Units.

Most units still feature the double swivel system that helps flatten the headsail as it is reefed and Torlon Bearings to reduce friction for easy furling and low maintenance.

All furlers are shipped with a picture book instruction manual that is simple and clear for owner installation. The MKIII#00AL, MK IV and Cruising units use your existing headstay and turnbuckle for installation.

MK IV Units feature double grooved aerodynamic foils & split removable drums for racing.

Cruising Units have single groove roundfoils to promote easy furling.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Both seem to have double grooves, but I don't see any reference to the split removable drum on the 00AL.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/07/2010 09:21:29

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 08/07/2010 : 16:39:22

I think I read in Practical Sailor that the aerodynamic foil and split drum for easy race removal is about the only difference.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 18:45:08

Dave,

I believe you are correct. I've pretty much made up my mind to go with the Mark IV. It's only a couple of humdred dollars more and should give better sail shape.

So far it looks like Defender has the best price at $1,164.00 for the furler only. Can anyone suggest some other places to look?

What is the best time of the year to get the best prices?

Edited by - on

Tjarnold
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2010 : 07:29:00

I have the Harken 00AL and love it. It does have the double groved foil, but not the split drum. Changing sails is easy. You can do it under sail with an additional halyard.

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