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Yet Another Newbie Dumb Question

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Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2010 : 17:11:09

This might be the last dumb question... I'm down to three boats:
<ul>
<li>C-22 swing keel. I've been aboard this boat. Good shape, everything works well, the pivot pin and cable were recently replaced. New paint, no blisters. Basic electrical, w/ a new porta-potty. Currently on a trailer. Current owner is a retired sailing instructor, and is offering a couple of weekend lessons if we buy the boat.</li>
<li>C-25. I've been aboard this boat. The owner has done a number of upgrades, but the boat was pretty cluttered inside. Needs significant cleaning (which turned off my wife.) He's changed up the wiring a lot. Original head and holding tank, not sure of the condition. Currently in the water, I haven't seen the bottom. A trailer is included.</li>
<li>C-25. I have not been on this boat yet. Owner says he bought it and trimmed it to sail Lake Maumelle. No upgrades to electrical, no head. Fixed keel. The hull was repainted 3 (or so) years ago, and looks gorgeous (owner says the lower hull was painted with appropriate lower-hull paint.) I've had a couple of very enjoyable phone calls with the owner, and I think his boat has good potential. But he does not have a trailer for it and I do not think he can pull it from the water.</li></ul>

So my dumb question: how would you inspect the lower hull of a boat still in the water?

(Of course, this is ignoring my wife's comments about taking the boat on vacation with her parents... I know I can't trailer a C-25... but I want to investigate all possibilities.)

Thanks, everybody!

Howard Warren
Little Rock, AR
1979 C-25 #1435, "Novia"

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 19:56:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Slingerland
 C-25. I've been aboard this boat. The owner has done a number of upgrades, but the boat was pretty cluttered inside. Needs significant cleaning (which turned off my wife.) He's changed up the wiring a lot. Original head and holding tank, not sure of the condition. Currently in the water, I haven't seen the bottom. A trailer is included.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If I've said it once I've said it 50 times--IF YOU WANT TO SELL A BOT, CLEAN IT UP AND GET THE CRAP OUT OF IT! You want a positive emotional reaction--not a negative one, unless you want to keep the boat. Here's the proof. However, a boat can be cleaned up... an old head may or may not be OK... If not, replacing it is generally the simplest and most effective solution.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">C-25. I have not been on this boat yet. Owner says he bought it and trimmed it to sail Lake Maumelle. No upgrades to electrical, no head. Fixed keel. The hull was repainted 3 (or so) years ago, and looks gorgeous (owner says the lower hull was painted with appropriate lower-hull paint.) I've had a couple of very enjoyable phone calls with the owner, and I think his boat has good potential. But he does not have a trailer for it and I do not think he can pull it from the water. So my dumb question: how would you inspect the lower hull of a boat still in the water?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You don't, unless you want to put on a mask and go diving. You can look around under all of the removable panels down below, looking for evidence of repairs to the hull, but you won't know the condition of the keel or if there are blisters in the gelcoat (not uncommon on boats that stay in fresh water). You don't mention years--the fin keel was bare cast iron (with mild steel bolts and nuts that tend to rust) until about 1983, and lead covered with a thick mat (with shiny SS bolts) thereafter. There are other significant changes that occurred over the years... Painted hull topsides can be a disappointment--every time you bump into a dock, you'll have a new scar in the paint. Eventually you'll have to remove all of it and start over or just restore the original gelcoat underneath.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">C-22 swing keel. I've been aboard this boat. Good shape, everything works well, the pivot pin and cable were recently replaced. New paint, no blisters. Basic electrical, w/ a new porta-potty. Currently on a trailer. Current owner is a retired sailing instructor, and is offering a couple of weekend lessons if we buy the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">For you, this could be your winner.

But I'll suggest you look into the other C-22s mentioned on your previous thread, to compare condition, equipment, and prices. Check the used boat sites (Boattrader, Texassailor, Yachtworld,...) and look at a couple of boats if possible. Buying from an instructor, with his offer of assistance, has some appeal, but I'd want some perspective.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/18/2010 20:15:07

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5368 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 20:32:42

Could it hurt to get the selected on surveyed? Would cost some money, but money well spent. Pay me now, or pay me later.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 20:38:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Could it hurt to get the selected on surveyed?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We've been all through that--surveyors in Arkansas only do bassboats.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3462 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 04:10:16

The stadard answer would be to get a survey.

But having said that....I didn't. The boat I bought had an outwardly clean appearance. The impression immediately was that it was well-cared for and inspecting it from what I could gain access, it did not disapppoint. For example, the bilge area was clean as could be with no watermarks and shiny bolts/nuts down to the base. The boat was definitely in sail-away condition. The only issue was a finicky outboard but I took that into account as I was prepared to buy a new outboard. I asked about the bottom - If it had blisters, etc and the answer was "No".

But you take a risk without a survey. I decided to go for it and I have been pleased. Only thing was that there were some blisters on the bottom but not major. When I did get around to applying a new multi-year paint, some of those blisters turned out to be pauint blisters. The dime sized other blisters were about 10 of them and they have not grwon in almost 5 years and so not really an issue.

A surveyer can tell you some things that may not be apparent to most boat buyers - Any signs of crevice corrosion on the stays inside the fittings, taking moisture readings of the hull and rudder to see if any internal issues, keel/hull integrity, etc.

So....survey or not ? That is a decision you have to make.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 05:15:27

<center>A Survey Is Essential</center>
Re: "--surveyors in Arkansas only do bassboats."

So you'll have to do your own survey. Maybe a nearby C-25 owner can be persuaded to help out. There are a few good introductory books on surveying small sailboats. "What Shape Is She In" by Allan Vaitses, and "Inspecting The Aging Sailboat" by Don Casey come to mind. Reading a couple thin books won't make you a professional sailboat surveyor, but it may put you ahead of the local bass boat expert. Even if you do hire a survey done, reading at least one book on the topic first will help get your money's worth out of a pro.

I strongly recommend having a trailer for a trailerable boat. Not being able to do your own haul out raises the inconvenience and cost of ownership considerably. And as already discussed, being able to visit new and different sailing venues adds value to the boat ownership experience. Having a trailer also makes selling a boat a lot easier!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

klassi1
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 07:42:23

There is a surveyor in Arkansas that does sailboats.

David Woodruff
Principal Marine Surveyor
111 Post Oak
Ashdown, Arkansas 71822
Phone (870) 200-3494

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:01:28

David, who is it? I could only find a single surveyor in central Arkansas (John Linck) and he no longer does sailboats.

Thanks!

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:02:26

Oops... David, I just read your sig line in it's entirety. I'll call you shortly.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:02:30

David Woodruff
Principal Marine Surveyor
111 Post Oak
Ashdown, Arkansas 71822
Phone (870) 200-3494

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:03:23

Yeah... I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree this morning...

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:28:56

Slingerland,

One piece of advice,

If you title your threads with a subject that's relevant to your question, you'll probably get even more response. This thread could be titled something like "C-22 VS C-25, advice please" instead of "Yet Another Newbie Dumb Question"

After all,your questions are not dumb at all.

Edited by - PCP777 on 08/19/2010 08:29:43

klassi1
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 10:55:23

I'm not the surveyor. David (contact info above) is recommended by one of the members in our sail club. Sorry about the confusion.

Deanne

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 11:00:48

Thanks, Deanne! I've called and left a message with him, we'll see where it goes.

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Sailor Sam
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 11:37:09

First, I don't believe there is a "dumb" newbie question.

Second, It is best to "hire" the experience you thus far lack than to assume or take things on face value. Especially when it comes to placing yourself and those you love on the water in an untried craft.

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