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Winter storage with bow slightly up?

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/26/2010 : 19:19:57

My C250 got hauled today at a local boat club that I am joining. Things were taking a long time for various reasons beyond my control, and some people who were waiting were becoming impatient because their boat had a large draft and the tide was quickly ebbing. So when I noticed the bow slightly higher than level I decided not to push the issue, since my membership at this boat club has not been approved yet.

I am glad that the cockpit drains to the stern, because I did not want to be accumulating water/ice on the floor. But I vaguely recall that there may be some problems with drainage in the anchor locker and/or foredeck hatch if the boat is not perfectly level. (I can't find the topic that discusses that right now.)

Could someone fill me in on what this issue is, and maybe provide suggestions to alleviate the problem?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/26/2010 : 19:45:25

Your foredeck hatch is likely to leak if you're pitched back. Water will collect around the hatch's seal and probably leak into the interior. You might be able to apply tape, but you're probably better off tarping off the foredeck so water/snow/ice doesn't get a chance to collect.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2010 : 20:16:47

While I don't have a 250like you cool kids, similar issues exist with teh C-25. What I do is to wait until the boat is on the cradle and in position for storage, then scrub the decks.

After a thorough washing which includes liberal use of a running hose, powerwasher, and buckets of water dumped across teh decks, I look for ponding and decide whether it warrants correction or not, and whether more water is likely to accumulate in those places over the winter to the point that it will become an issue.

If the situation warrants correction, I take out a hydraulic jack and lift the cradle, adjusting the blocking to raise the corners that will provide the desired drainage.

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skybird
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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2010 : 20:17:52

there is info on arlyn's website regarding this issue

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/26/2010 : 21:45:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skybird
 there is info on arlyn's website regarding this issue
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I just clicked every link I could find on his site (http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/sailing.html), and could not find a reference to this specific issue. Could you spoon-feed me the link?

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2010 : 05:56:51

Without a reference, I think Arlyn once wrote bow raised two degrees is sufficent. I guess if you take a small pail of water and pour a little bit around the hatch and it runs into the anchor locker your probably OK. Of course, tarping or shrink wrap eliminates the concern. Area drains around the hatch and anchor locker need to be clean also.

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superbob
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Response Posted - 10/28/2010 : 08:08:29

And I thought mine was the only boat with the water issue. Last weekend 7 inches of rain hit northern California with most of those 7 inches finding their way into the boat and into the bilge. It was apparent the water came from the forward hatch area. Made some changes which I'm anxious to see if they worked as it rain a bit last night. Interestingly, the boat never leaked while moored for two winters at the lake. At home that's another story. Looks like trial and error to remedy this problem.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 10/28/2010 : 09:19:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bear
 ...Area drains around the hatch and anchor locker need to be clean also.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What drains are you referring to? There is a drain in the bottom of the anchor locker, but I do not recall seeing any drain holes in the channel surrounding the hatch. If there was one, where would it go?

After yesterday's weather here I'll have a good test. I left a wash pan under the hatch to catch any drippings. I'll go down this afternoon to inspect the result. Even when I had the boat on the water there would occasionally be a couple of drips under the hatch, so if there is some water there it does not necessarily mean it's caused by the level of the boat. I've been meaning to replace the gasket around the hatch - looks like Home Depot has some weather stripping that is EXACTLY the same as what's there now.

superbob - The largest source of rainwater that my boat had was old/cracked/shrunken bedding under the electrical connector. I looked at about 6 C250s when I was shopping, and every one of them (including the one I bought) had moisture in the starboard spot light over the table. I rebedded the electrical connector and the problem completely went away.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/28/2010 09:20:25

superbob
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USA
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Response Posted - 10/28/2010 : 09:43:02

Rick: I replaced and sealed the electrical connector on the deck this summer but will check the cabin light to make certain it's not the culprit. Thanks for the tip.

I'll have more later today after I've checked the cabin.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/28/2010 : 12:26:14

Tarp it.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/28/2010 : 13:03:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Tarp it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I plan to do that, but other things (such as removing the outboard so it does not get stolen) are higher up on the list.

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2010 : 13:20:52

Bob, Bad choice of words I meant channel around hatch and anchor hatch cover. Also a simple test would be open both covers and pour some water in the hatch cover channel and watch if it runs into the anchor locker.One other tip taht I found useful for those tarping, I throw a 3/8" pine over the tarp at several loctions tied to the trailer frame. Keeps the wind from whipping the tarp.

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superbob
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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 08:12:52

Randy: Great tarp. It looks durable. Thickness? Where can I find one? There's a lot of crap tarps out there. Don't mind spending money on one if it's going to last more than a season.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 12:29:30

Bob it is a 20 x 30 tarp. Cost about $80. Around here the blue tarps are the cheapest and don't last long. The green tarps are better but not good enough for the 6 months of weather I need it for. The silver tarps (brown underside) handle the 6 months of weather well. I use bungees to hold the tarp to the outer trailer frame so that the tarp is not tight against the hull. This help prevent mildew on the hull from trapped moisture. I also put towels over anything that would wear on the tarp such as the deck light on the mast and certain stanchions.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 10/29/2010 12:32:18

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 13:11:53

Thanks for the tips. I would not have thought of mildew stains at contact points. Maybe I do need to use water jugs after all, but make them low enough that they don't slap the hull. Or get a smaller tarp that doesn't extend below the rub rail. Or put
tent stakes in the ground to anchor the tarp.

FYI, I'm not ready to drop the mast, so I plan to use 2 tarps - one for foredeck and one for cockpit.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/29/2010 13:19:06

bear
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 13:33:56

I'm not doing good with words lately, not proof reading at all. I use 3/8" rope over the tarp in several locations, tied to trailer frame and then bungee cords from the eyelets to the trailer. I have a silver/brown tarp that I purchsed at Harbour Freight last year. Tremendous winds 25 knot's gusts to 35 today here in eastern N.Y. typical for wind this fall, tarp remains anchored.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 18:27:26

I got to the boat today and there was some water that leaked in through the hatch. I opened the hatch to inspect, and discovered a few things. First, the slope of the channel (down toward the stern) is so steep that lowering my bow is not going to cause it to drain forward. As I mentioned before, I had occasional leakage there while the boat was on the water, and the dirt pattern (dirt accumulation in the back part) confirms that it drained toward the stern all season. I did notice that the gasket does not contact the hatch at one part, which appears to be the entry point for the water. I am not sure if this is the original gasket or something that a previous owner replaced, but it appears to be most easily rectified by putting a second gasket onto the hatch itself, so that the two will squeeze down on each other. Aside from that I may tape the edges closed (any recommendations of what kind of tape will stick, and remove cleanly at the end of the winter?) and also put a tarp over the foredeck (as soon as I can assemble a small superstructure to support it).

How does this sloping of the channel around the hatch compare with your C250s? Do you have any drain hole in your channel to remove the water?

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 19:31:36

I don't see how a drain hole could be put in the front hatch channel. Where would it drain to? We get no water in the hatch. Have you added weight to the bow? Many C250 owners, at least the wing keels, add weight to the bow. We have 255lbs of bagged crushed rock in ours. Makes the boat sit nicely on her lines and she handles great. We got the rock at Home Depot and also got a reel of wrapping plastic there. Wrapped each bag. Hasn't moved at all in four years.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 10/29/2010 19:33:29

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 20:16:50

I'm not up to 255 lbs. yet. I have 120, and may add more in the spring. I'll do some more precise measurements and calculations this weekend, but based on my quick glance it looks like the bow would have to be pushed awfully low for water to drain forward. Basically the boat seems to have a deck that rises all the way up to the bow. Have you poured water in your channel to confirm that it drains forward?

My question about the drain was because I do actually have a small hole in that channel. I thought it was a defect of some sort, so I covered it up with duct tape last spring. After seeing the water buildup in there, I began to wonder if it was actually meant to be a drain hole. If water goes through there, it would probably follow the roof liner down to the bilge.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/29/2010 20:20:07

skybird
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/29/2010 : 21:25:00

on arlyn's site--go from home page > warnings > rain gutter

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/30/2010 : 08:18:12

I haven't poured water in the channel but we don't get water in the boat from the hatch. I have hundreds of boat photos but none of that area. I believe the channel from the hatch is seamless to the channel around the anchor locker so water drains to the anchor locker. It is hard to imagine that Catalina put in a drain hole that drained inward through the boat.

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superbob
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USA
200 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2010 : 08:23:34

I have 300 pounds under the cabin seats (150 each side). It seems the previous owner didn't place them near the bow so as not to interfere with the speed/depth transponders located right under the V-berth bilge/storage access. I'm thinking of changing their position come spring much closer to the bow.

Installing a canvas cover on the hatch much like the one covering the cabin entry might be a long term solution for both in the water and on land.

This said, lowering the nose of the boat two degrees lower than level seems to have stopped water intrusion into the cabin. The proof in this pudding will be the next heavy rain.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 10/30/2010 : 22:05:07

Based on your advice I will go ahead and lower the bow until the water drains forward from the hatch channel.

Currently the boat is on five stands - one on the bow, and four on the sides (two just behind the keel, and two 4' forward from the stern). With the bulk of the weight resting on the keel blocks, the center of mass for the remaining weight of the boat is behind the keel. I can remove the bow stand and the boat will continue to rest on the keel and four stands. I'm not recommending this, since standing on the bow, removing the outboard, or other weight shifts could cause the boat to tip forward without the stand there.

Do you guys think that I should just lower the bow stand several inches (which, as noted above, seems to be safe to do temporarily) and crank up the rear stands (effectively rocking the keel forward on top of the blocks) until the bow rests back in the stand? Or is this too risky, and I should hire the lift operator to put the boat back on the slings to make this adjustment? A couple of other boat owners in the yard are saying to just rock the boat in place with the stands, but I do not have enough experience to know if this is an unacceptable risk.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/31/2010 : 07:28:48

I'd do it a 1/4 - 1/2" at a time checking to make sure as I lowered the bow roller that everything remained stable. Lower the bow stand slightly then adjust the rear set of stands until the hull is tight at the bow. Then repeat as necessary to get where you want the boat. Stop immediately if anything starts getting unstable.

The above is what I would do! If you feel the slightest bit uncomfortable leave it alone and tarp OR hire someone with experience! It's not worth risking the boat or someone getting hurt!

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 10/31/2010 : 18:06:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by superbob
 ...This said, lowering the nose of the boat two degrees lower than level seems to have stopped water intrusion into the cabin. The proof in this pudding will be the next heavy rain.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Two degrees does not sound like much, but actually it is a LOT:

25*12*tan(2*pi*2/360) = 10.5 inches

Does your cockpit drain out through your scupper and/or transom cutaway? Around here I worry about ice damage to any area that does not drain properly, so the opposite drainage of the bow and cockpit make for a narrow window. (Probably not a problem where you are.)

FYI, I took a laser level down to the boat today and confirmed that the boot strip is exactly 8" higher at the bow than at the stern. Because of where the keel contacts the blocks, I will have to raise the stern about 6" to get the boot stripe level (the bow will drop by about 2" when I do this). Of course, Arlyn said that 1 degree slope is OK, which would mean that I would only need to raise the stern about 2". So somewhere between 2" and 6" should be about right. I'll test the drainage before I'm done.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have 300 pounds under the cabin seats (150 each side). It seems the previous owner didn't place them near the bow so as not to interfere with the speed/depth transponders located right under the V-berth bilge/storage access. I'm thinking of changing their position come spring much closer to the bow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I attached a plastic CD basket over top my transducer to protect it in case the sand/gravel bags (or anything else) slides back toward it.

Moving the weight forward is a good idea. In addition to pulling the bow lower, it increases the moment of inertia so that your boat will pitch less in chop.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/31/2010 18:18:20

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/31/2010 : 19:27:54

The cockpit should drain out the scuppers and/or transom cutout. The boat should not tilt forward enough to accumulate water in the cockpit. Really, I think the easiest thing is to lower the mast, use it as a tent frame and tarp the whole thing. Developing a gin-pole setup will be something that you will appreciate for many reasons. If not this year then consider it as an off-season project.

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